Forums » Suggestions
Re-Organizing Ships
I want to start off by saying this is a long term suggestion, as I think doing this now in the current "Space Quake" setup could be more harmful than helpful. But when/if we get content, I think this is one of the first things that needs to happen.
It's been said many times over, all three nations just look too much the same. We need some drastically different ships for each nation. I think that only a select few fighters should be available to more than one nation. Maybe some mass produced TPG fighters.
A suggestion of the current ship re-distribution:
Itani: Valk, Cent, Wraith
Serco: Prom, Vult, Rag
UIT: Hog, Maud, Centaur, Hornet
Subfactions could have certain variants of their respective ships. Maybe some UIT subfactions have a vult variant or something of the like. Basically, factions that sharing of some technology would make sense with could have some similar ships.
The adding of additional ships will help with this distribution. But with some very specific exceptions, I think that there should be almost no ship alike in any of the nations.
It's been said many times over, all three nations just look too much the same. We need some drastically different ships for each nation. I think that only a select few fighters should be available to more than one nation. Maybe some mass produced TPG fighters.
A suggestion of the current ship re-distribution:
Itani: Valk, Cent, Wraith
Serco: Prom, Vult, Rag
UIT: Hog, Maud, Centaur, Hornet
Subfactions could have certain variants of their respective ships. Maybe some UIT subfactions have a vult variant or something of the like. Basically, factions that sharing of some technology would make sense with could have some similar ships.
The adding of additional ships will help with this distribution. But with some very specific exceptions, I think that there should be almost no ship alike in any of the nations.
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http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/16099
Not a single reply... Your thread ironically pushed it off the first page of suggestions. Your post here could have been a reply.
Not a single reply... Your thread ironically pushed it off the first page of suggestions. Your post here could have been a reply.
if the serco are the only ones with rags then how will we kill cappies?
the ships that are available for everyone should be the basic ships that any nation can get. i would be pissed if i couldnt get a hog or vult.
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the ships that are available for everyone should be the basic ships that any nation can get. i would be pissed if i couldnt get a hog or vult.
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I think that as opposed to redistributing the current ships, or maybe in addition to, new types of ships would first need to be created to make all things fair. One similar to the Rag, for example, but more Itani-ish in design. I'm thinking that more medium-sized ships ought to be introduced, ones that would bridge the size gap between Trident and Behemoth, and probably have more national identity to 'em. I know this has been talked about before, the medium sized ships, and if someone knows the topic I'd like to see it. (I've looked.) Just imagine a Heavy Ragnorak... Plenty bigger, with more ports, and several mounted Gatling Turrets to ward off incoming fighters. And heck yeah to taking some buddies on board to man those turrets.
Re: FatStrat and Ghost
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/9913
Both new threads could have been replies to this one. Point is, it's been brought up before. Ghost's suggested division is almost identical to mine, however I'd recommend keeping the Centaur international.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/9913
Both new threads could have been replies to this one. Point is, it's been brought up before. Ghost's suggested division is almost identical to mine, however I'd recommend keeping the Centaur international.
The Prom can very well do the job of bomber for the Dominion, and the Itani need a bomber, so give them the Rag. I know the Prom is not infiniboost, but they could give it to the MkI, to finally give it a role.
Looking further into that list, I think the distribution should be:
Itani and Serco: 1 light fighter, 1 medium fighter, 1 heavy fighter-bomber, 1 tradeship
UIT: 1 light fighter, 1 medium fighter, 2 tradeships
So
Itani: Cent, Valk, Rag, Wraith
Serco: Vult, Hog, Prom, Atlas
UIT: Raptor*, Hornet, Maud, XC* (*UIT "groups up" with TPG to fill its list)
TPG: Raptor, XC (Not a nation so no need for all positions; ships available to anyone getting faction with them, as usual)
International: EC-class, Rev, Taur, Moth (These designs are popular and far-spread and thus all nations have them)
Looking further into that list, I think the distribution should be:
Itani and Serco: 1 light fighter, 1 medium fighter, 1 heavy fighter-bomber, 1 tradeship
UIT: 1 light fighter, 1 medium fighter, 2 tradeships
So
Itani: Cent, Valk, Rag, Wraith
Serco: Vult, Hog, Prom, Atlas
UIT: Raptor*, Hornet, Maud, XC* (*UIT "groups up" with TPG to fill its list)
TPG: Raptor, XC (Not a nation so no need for all positions; ships available to anyone getting faction with them, as usual)
International: EC-class, Rev, Taur, Moth (These designs are popular and far-spread and thus all nations have them)
Jex, so for UIT the only choice to mount large weaponry would be "international" Revenants, Centaurs or Behemoths?
I really don't see the advantge of segregating ships like that. IMO the approach of having all ships common minus the nation specifics is better.
Wussies need spamrags, besides, rag is ugly and inconsistent with Itani design.
What you need before dividing ships all up is a universal line of ships to fit each role. Every station should still offer a fighter, heavy fighter, medium, heavy, and cargo ship. But once we pick these five that every nation should offer, everything else should be specialized. Don't sell vults, cents, and raptors at the same station because this leads to the feeling of nothing being unique to anywhere.
The only exception to the rule should be corvus, which ought to offer a piratey version of everything- reason being a corvus admired pilot in the new faction system might have no where else to go.
So how to divide this? We'll need a new light fighter- there is no avoiding it. Something not unique to the Itani and Serco that can be offered universally; something comparable and between both. The EC can be adapted, but only if the 98/101 models are made more comparable to the present basic centurion/vulture. The revenant fills that medium role nicely, and the hog fits the bill for heavy fighter. I think the taur would be a valid choice for the universal heavy. That leaves the basic moth for cargo.
Now every nation can have a unique in each category. Lights are already done: cent, vult, raptor, corvult.
Heavy fighter might be in good shape. The Itani have the valk. UIT gets the maud (reduce the cargo space to that of the atlas); Corvus gets their maud. The key to this category is a ton of firepower without sacrificing much maneuverability. In keeping with the Serco theme, give them something that out-armors the competition. Maybe a ship with a single large port and ungodly armor that doesn't sacrifice maneuverability like hogs, screamer/repair-platform anyone?
Medium is more complicated. UIT gets the Atlas (increase the cargo space to that of the mauds)... now what? The hornet could easily make the Itani medium only if it is given a new, more Itani look. I'm making a theme here. Cent 2small, Valk 3small, Hornet 4small, see below for 3large; Itani ships can have repetitive ports, while a Serco hallmark can be armor, UIT being cargo space on everything. By this reasoning- and process of elimination- the wraith goes to the Serco, but before this is done it needs to be made to look more box-like, similar to the Itani looking more rounded. Maybe switch the models? Give the wraith the stats of the hornet and hand it to the Itani, Give the hornet the stats of the wraith and hand it to the Serco. Give something LIKE a present hornet to corvus, they love their rails after all.
As far as the heavies go, Serco get the current prom with an additional small port(which must remain strong in armor and maneuver for this balance to equal out given the comparable lack of weapons), give the UIT the current rag but with prom2-esque cargo space, and give the Itani a new heavy ship with 3 large ports (or something, but I'm picturing a heavy-class, beefy-ass valk). For Corvus, I see a nasty ship with 4 small ports and a large.. a hornet-ified rag.
Cargo is just outright doomed to be a lot of work. I guess since everyone has a moth already, just customize it by nation. Serco have an armored moth that is less rounded, Itani have a speed demon moth (a whole 180m/s!) that looks like a zeplin, UIT get the XC, and Corvus? Give their moth more guns. Arr, eat triple Lmines and git off me six!
Let me take a step back to look at the mess I made. Aside from just the simple redistribution, not a single ship class will be without stat or model changes. Most need new ships entirely. I've also defined the ship classes differently than I think everyone else. It is key to remember that there is a difference between heavy fighters and med or light ships. You all recognize it in the cockpit- it just hasn't been put in words. You don't fight a hog and valk like you fight a vult or revC. And the hog and valk aren't able to be out-maneuvered like hornets or revenants. To put it in perspective...
In each case apply +armor to serco, +speed to itani, -drain/+cargo to uit, and smaller +all to corvus
light up to 4000 kg, speed 220, 8000 armor, no cargo < heavy fighter 4500-6500 kg, speed 230, up to 11000 armor, 3cu cargo < medium 7000-11000 kg, speed 200, up to 15000 armor, 20cu cargo < heavy 11000+, speed 200, 16000+ armor, 30cu cargo
Yes, I think the fighters need a bonus of 20+ speed over ships with armor. After all, they're never infiniboost and medium/heavies usually are. They NEED a serious speed advantage to chase down something big. If it isn't easy for a fighter craft to overtake or outrun a medium or heavy ship, it's broken. After the models and stats are redistributed, the speeds and masses need attention in this manner. Remember how the valk works though.. heavy fighters don't have to be heavier until weapons are added. The tradeoff when compared to fighters should be larger profile and weaker strafing, but not weaker forward thrust.
The only exception to the rule should be corvus, which ought to offer a piratey version of everything- reason being a corvus admired pilot in the new faction system might have no where else to go.
So how to divide this? We'll need a new light fighter- there is no avoiding it. Something not unique to the Itani and Serco that can be offered universally; something comparable and between both. The EC can be adapted, but only if the 98/101 models are made more comparable to the present basic centurion/vulture. The revenant fills that medium role nicely, and the hog fits the bill for heavy fighter. I think the taur would be a valid choice for the universal heavy. That leaves the basic moth for cargo.
Now every nation can have a unique in each category. Lights are already done: cent, vult, raptor, corvult.
Heavy fighter might be in good shape. The Itani have the valk. UIT gets the maud (reduce the cargo space to that of the atlas); Corvus gets their maud. The key to this category is a ton of firepower without sacrificing much maneuverability. In keeping with the Serco theme, give them something that out-armors the competition. Maybe a ship with a single large port and ungodly armor that doesn't sacrifice maneuverability like hogs, screamer/repair-platform anyone?
Medium is more complicated. UIT gets the Atlas (increase the cargo space to that of the mauds)... now what? The hornet could easily make the Itani medium only if it is given a new, more Itani look. I'm making a theme here. Cent 2small, Valk 3small, Hornet 4small, see below for 3large; Itani ships can have repetitive ports, while a Serco hallmark can be armor, UIT being cargo space on everything. By this reasoning- and process of elimination- the wraith goes to the Serco, but before this is done it needs to be made to look more box-like, similar to the Itani looking more rounded. Maybe switch the models? Give the wraith the stats of the hornet and hand it to the Itani, Give the hornet the stats of the wraith and hand it to the Serco. Give something LIKE a present hornet to corvus, they love their rails after all.
As far as the heavies go, Serco get the current prom with an additional small port(which must remain strong in armor and maneuver for this balance to equal out given the comparable lack of weapons), give the UIT the current rag but with prom2-esque cargo space, and give the Itani a new heavy ship with 3 large ports (or something, but I'm picturing a heavy-class, beefy-ass valk). For Corvus, I see a nasty ship with 4 small ports and a large.. a hornet-ified rag.
Cargo is just outright doomed to be a lot of work. I guess since everyone has a moth already, just customize it by nation. Serco have an armored moth that is less rounded, Itani have a speed demon moth (a whole 180m/s!) that looks like a zeplin, UIT get the XC, and Corvus? Give their moth more guns. Arr, eat triple Lmines and git off me six!
Let me take a step back to look at the mess I made. Aside from just the simple redistribution, not a single ship class will be without stat or model changes. Most need new ships entirely. I've also defined the ship classes differently than I think everyone else. It is key to remember that there is a difference between heavy fighters and med or light ships. You all recognize it in the cockpit- it just hasn't been put in words. You don't fight a hog and valk like you fight a vult or revC. And the hog and valk aren't able to be out-maneuvered like hornets or revenants. To put it in perspective...
In each case apply +armor to serco, +speed to itani, -drain/+cargo to uit, and smaller +all to corvus
light up to 4000 kg, speed 220, 8000 armor, no cargo < heavy fighter 4500-6500 kg, speed 230, up to 11000 armor, 3cu cargo < medium 7000-11000 kg, speed 200, up to 15000 armor, 20cu cargo < heavy 11000+, speed 200, 16000+ armor, 30cu cargo
Yes, I think the fighters need a bonus of 20+ speed over ships with armor. After all, they're never infiniboost and medium/heavies usually are. They NEED a serious speed advantage to chase down something big. If it isn't easy for a fighter craft to overtake or outrun a medium or heavy ship, it's broken. After the models and stats are redistributed, the speeds and masses need attention in this manner. Remember how the valk works though.. heavy fighters don't have to be heavier until weapons are added. The tradeoff when compared to fighters should be larger profile and weaker strafing, but not weaker forward thrust.
wtf is content? Is it some magical substance that'll make the game way too fun for anyone to handle or something? Because if it isn't, why do you want to make the game boring when this content stuff comes around?
@fatstrat and phaserlight
Heh, sorry. I did use the search function but searched with different vocabulary so nothing came up.
In regards to the suggestion:
Again, I think the most important thing is to remember that when doing this, we have to think ahead to a time when/if we have content. Obviously re-organizing ships right now in the current Space-Quake environment would not turn out so well. And yes, the addition of new ships to fill the roles of the ships that I had distributed to other nations would be necessary. So with the suggestion that I listed, the Itani would need a new heavy bomber, the Serco would need some more medium/light fighters and the UIT would need some more light fighters/heavy bombers.
Heh, sorry. I did use the search function but searched with different vocabulary so nothing came up.
In regards to the suggestion:
Again, I think the most important thing is to remember that when doing this, we have to think ahead to a time when/if we have content. Obviously re-organizing ships right now in the current Space-Quake environment would not turn out so well. And yes, the addition of new ships to fill the roles of the ships that I had distributed to other nations would be necessary. So with the suggestion that I listed, the Itani would need a new heavy bomber, the Serco would need some more medium/light fighters and the UIT would need some more light fighters/heavy bombers.
We need more ships before this can truely happen.
I say that the next ships that come out get segregated like that. So we keep the ships we have now where they are, and just add nation specfic ships as we go (So, the serco would get 3 new ones, the uit 2 new ones, the itani 3 new ones...yeah)
something like that.
I say that the next ships that come out get segregated like that. So we keep the ships we have now where they are, and just add nation specfic ships as we go (So, the serco would get 3 new ones, the uit 2 new ones, the itani 3 new ones...yeah)
something like that.
If you adhere to the backstory, the Itani should be WAAAAAY ahead in spectacular ship design, with cool shields, mental-control technology, etc. While the Serco are still putzing around with Vultures and stick-n-rudder manual control.
I'd say that the backstory does not allow for any parity between the races in regards to their flight craft.
Each nation SHOULD look different, if nothing else. They kind of do now.
I think that we just need NEW ships. Lots of them. Like 4 models per grayspace faction, 8 models per nation, each with like 3 or 4 variants. If you put enough variation out there, they playerbase will find roles for each ship. Use the playerbase as your refinement "engine", and they'll tell you where to develop new ships.
Ships go with roles.
Light fighter (cent, vult)
Fighter with heavy weapon but less maneuverability (hog)
Light transport (Atlas)
Medium Transport (Centaur)
Heavy Transport (Behemoths)
Missile platform (Rag)
Heavy fighter (Prom)
Find the ROLE that you'd want the ship to maintain, first, and then develop the ship around that. Remember most combat ships are nothing more than elaborate weapon delivery platforms.
I'd say that the backstory does not allow for any parity between the races in regards to their flight craft.
Each nation SHOULD look different, if nothing else. They kind of do now.
I think that we just need NEW ships. Lots of them. Like 4 models per grayspace faction, 8 models per nation, each with like 3 or 4 variants. If you put enough variation out there, they playerbase will find roles for each ship. Use the playerbase as your refinement "engine", and they'll tell you where to develop new ships.
Ships go with roles.
Light fighter (cent, vult)
Fighter with heavy weapon but less maneuverability (hog)
Light transport (Atlas)
Medium Transport (Centaur)
Heavy Transport (Behemoths)
Missile platform (Rag)
Heavy fighter (Prom)
Find the ROLE that you'd want the ship to maintain, first, and then develop the ship around that. Remember most combat ships are nothing more than elaborate weapon delivery platforms.
something I'd like to throw out for consideration is that the Wraith (a.k.a. revenant) could function as a light bomber in addition to its primary role as transport. It has an L-port, 2 s ports and slightly higher than average armor.
Leebs said
If you adhere to the backstory, the Itani should be WAAAAAY ahead in spectacular ship design, with cool shields, mental-control technology, etc. While the Serco are still putzing around with Vultures and stick-n-rudder manual control.
Ahem.
AD 2661
Over the past few years, the Serco had been developing their own short-range space combat fighters. With most of their technological base dedicated to more terrestrial (biological and somewhat cybernetic) interests, they found it slower going than the Itani. However, with the capture and reverse-engineering of a few downed Itani air/spacecraft, they soon made good progress. The Serco implemented a completely cybernetic system, as opposed to a manual Itani pilot interface, allowing their test pilots to jack directly into the ship control systems. With this virtually thought-based piloting system, they could perform incredible maneuvers with very fast reaction times. Ten of the craft had been designed and constructed under the utmost secrecy, but had not yet been flight tested due to constant Itani over-flights.
The Serco have been flying their ships by thought for 1774 years now.
I really wish people would stop saying "if we stick to the backstory..." Why? Because most if not all technical advancements listed there happened thousands of years ago compared to the current year 4435! Look at the automotive and airplane industries. Neither is 200 years old and look at the advances since then in both! And you want to make us believe that the Nations's technology stagnated for thousands of years? PLEASE!
As for new ships, yeah, I'd prefer if new models came in and we could put them in the empty niches, but I was making the list based solely on existing models (which is why I put the Rag with the Itani; I agree it doesn't fit with the look at all). If my list were to allow for new models, we'd need an Itani bomber, a Serco tradeship, and both light and heavy UIT fighters.
And yes, Syylk, the UIT is not a nation at war and its main opponent (Corvus) doesn't own heavy fighter with L-port weapons, either, so for them light and medium fighters would be enough. Besides, as Ecka and Relayer can show you, a taur can be a frightening foe to face. Like Phaserlight says, most tradeships can work well in a bomber role.
If you adhere to the backstory, the Itani should be WAAAAAY ahead in spectacular ship design, with cool shields, mental-control technology, etc. While the Serco are still putzing around with Vultures and stick-n-rudder manual control.
Ahem.
AD 2661
Over the past few years, the Serco had been developing their own short-range space combat fighters. With most of their technological base dedicated to more terrestrial (biological and somewhat cybernetic) interests, they found it slower going than the Itani. However, with the capture and reverse-engineering of a few downed Itani air/spacecraft, they soon made good progress. The Serco implemented a completely cybernetic system, as opposed to a manual Itani pilot interface, allowing their test pilots to jack directly into the ship control systems. With this virtually thought-based piloting system, they could perform incredible maneuvers with very fast reaction times. Ten of the craft had been designed and constructed under the utmost secrecy, but had not yet been flight tested due to constant Itani over-flights.
The Serco have been flying their ships by thought for 1774 years now.
I really wish people would stop saying "if we stick to the backstory..." Why? Because most if not all technical advancements listed there happened thousands of years ago compared to the current year 4435! Look at the automotive and airplane industries. Neither is 200 years old and look at the advances since then in both! And you want to make us believe that the Nations's technology stagnated for thousands of years? PLEASE!
As for new ships, yeah, I'd prefer if new models came in and we could put them in the empty niches, but I was making the list based solely on existing models (which is why I put the Rag with the Itani; I agree it doesn't fit with the look at all). If my list were to allow for new models, we'd need an Itani bomber, a Serco tradeship, and both light and heavy UIT fighters.
And yes, Syylk, the UIT is not a nation at war and its main opponent (Corvus) doesn't own heavy fighter with L-port weapons, either, so for them light and medium fighters would be enough. Besides, as Ecka and Relayer can show you, a taur can be a frightening foe to face. Like Phaserlight says, most tradeships can work well in a bomber role.
Go figure. Corvus is not even a nation! Or I missed something, and now you can choose to create a native Corvus character?
Just for reference, waaay back when, the ship distribution was as follows:
Blue (Itani): Centurion, Wraith, Centaur
Red (Serco): Vulture, Warthog, Prometheus
Gold (UIT): Hornet, Atlas, Ragnarok
Yes, it did give the nations their own, unique face, but it did not do much for balance. If anything, it was more unbalanced due to the different ship sizes.
I do not entirely disagree with the national segregation of ships, but let's keep it moderate. Or, even better, let's wait until the devs have more time on their hands and introduce new ships. We already have the Raptor, this could be an exclusive UIT ship. I do see the problems, the best ship would determine the nation with the most active members. Therefore, more stuff is required before such specialisations can be considered. Stuff like gadgets (perhaps nation-specific ships could be the only ones with gadget ports?), computer software add-ons, or physical extensions to the ship.
Perhaps this last idea could be used to provide the diversity demanded, by allowing Serco to have the physical extensions, UIT to have gadget ports, and Itani to allow Software upgrades. But this would be a quite large field, and require lots of time and other resources, I'd imagine.
Blue (Itani): Centurion, Wraith, Centaur
Red (Serco): Vulture, Warthog, Prometheus
Gold (UIT): Hornet, Atlas, Ragnarok
Yes, it did give the nations their own, unique face, but it did not do much for balance. If anything, it was more unbalanced due to the different ship sizes.
I do not entirely disagree with the national segregation of ships, but let's keep it moderate. Or, even better, let's wait until the devs have more time on their hands and introduce new ships. We already have the Raptor, this could be an exclusive UIT ship. I do see the problems, the best ship would determine the nation with the most active members. Therefore, more stuff is required before such specialisations can be considered. Stuff like gadgets (perhaps nation-specific ships could be the only ones with gadget ports?), computer software add-ons, or physical extensions to the ship.
Perhaps this last idea could be used to provide the diversity demanded, by allowing Serco to have the physical extensions, UIT to have gadget ports, and Itani to allow Software upgrades. But this would be a quite large field, and require lots of time and other resources, I'd imagine.