Forums » Suggestions
New Traders
These traders are things I think should be added. They are focussed on functionality with humans, not bots, because I'm assuming that the bots will be more like humans as the AI is improved.
Blockade runner:
Weapons: 1s
hull: 6000
manuverability: fast
mass: same as vult
Cargo: 10
trade ship
Weapons: 2s
hull: 8000
manuverability: med
mass: same as hog
Cargo: 14
At the moment I find that the marauder and bus are the only trade ships which have the choice of trying to run from pirates. I tried to make it so that there were always fighters that would have a chance of catching the traders to keep things interesting.
frieght ship
Weapons: 1 L (maybe 2)
hull: 20000
manuverability: extra low
mass: 2x rag
Cargo: 60
size 20m EDITED: (used to say "25m")
Fairly self explanitory, don't go out by yourself in this ship unless you want to give cargo to someone else.
Blockade runner:
Weapons: 1s
hull: 6000
manuverability: fast
mass: same as vult
Cargo: 10
trade ship
Weapons: 2s
hull: 8000
manuverability: med
mass: same as hog
Cargo: 14
At the moment I find that the marauder and bus are the only trade ships which have the choice of trying to run from pirates. I tried to make it so that there were always fighters that would have a chance of catching the traders to keep things interesting.
frieght ship
Weapons: 1 L (maybe 2)
hull: 20000
manuverability: extra low
mass: 2x rag
Cargo: 60
size 20m EDITED: (used to say "25m")
Fairly self explanitory, don't go out by yourself in this ship unless you want to give cargo to someone else.
I think you should be able to subcontract out to AI for escort or extra cargo hauling capacity.
I think that's what the in progress means by "wingman"
The weapons are all underdone. Do you realize that your blockade runner is exactly the same as a more maneuverable bus with 4 more cargo slots attached? And your tradeship is exactly the same as a vult except with less maneuverabilty and more cargo... And having only 1l on a ship lke the freight ship leaves it unable to even do ANYTHING. If something gets by its escorts, it has no defense. Give it 2-3L.
To the first two complaints: yes these are trade ships not fighters.
The idea is you run away not engage in fighting. The blockade runner should be able to run from anything with a hvy engine if it has a med. So assuming the chaser has a med. If they (the chaser) uses energy they will fall behind after a few shots, if they use flares the trader only needs to change course slightly to not collide with the rockets.
What do you think the differences are between the current and the bombers? Weapons and cargo.
roguelazer, something with 60 cargo shouldn't be able to do anything but bring it from point a to b. It could easily hire 4-5 valks to escort it (they'd all make more $ than if they flew 5-6 marauders).
The idea is you run away not engage in fighting. The blockade runner should be able to run from anything with a hvy engine if it has a med. So assuming the chaser has a med. If they (the chaser) uses energy they will fall behind after a few shots, if they use flares the trader only needs to change course slightly to not collide with the rockets.
What do you think the differences are between the current and the bombers? Weapons and cargo.
roguelazer, something with 60 cargo shouldn't be able to do anything but bring it from point a to b. It could easily hire 4-5 valks to escort it (they'd all make more $ than if they flew 5-6 marauders).
I like the freight ship, though I think 2L would do better.
I think the Trade ship is a bit of a waste though.
The blockade runner seems like a centurion with more cargo. It needs something to bring it down, or the centurion needs to get better.
A fusion of the Trade Ship and Blockade Runner would do well. Give it a little less agility and a tad more hull to differentiate them a bit from the current ships.
I think the Trade ship is a bit of a waste though.
The blockade runner seems like a centurion with more cargo. It needs something to bring it down, or the centurion needs to get better.
A fusion of the Trade Ship and Blockade Runner would do well. Give it a little less agility and a tad more hull to differentiate them a bit from the current ships.
The centurion is more agile. Which is a significant thing. The centurion has a significant agility boost over the valk (I got that pointed out to me by a cent that nearly took out my valk). The "blockade runner" would have the exact same agility exactly the vult (same manuverability and mass).
The trade ship would be the cheaper (worse) all nation version of the marauder. Though the slightly better accel and agility (due to the smaller mass) would make it slightly different the way the vults thin profile gives it a distiction from a slower, under equiped valk.
The trade ship would be the cheaper (worse) all nation version of the marauder. Though the slightly better accel and agility (due to the smaller mass) would make it slightly different the way the vults thin profile gives it a distiction from a slower, under equiped valk.
I hate being dismissive all the time, but since Eldrad knows I usually value his opinion I'm going to risk it here.
This is another example of post with a good idea but an implementation based on not being able to look past the current state of the game. While the basic idea ("we need more types of usable trade ships") is good, there is a failure of imagination involved in figuring out how to fix it.
The blockade runner is a Centurian with extra cargo spaces. Leaving aside questions of balance, whats to keep future 'fighters' from mounting 'external cargo pods' and trade manueverability for more cargo space? What's to keep future ships from putting 'cargo box' gizmos in thier weapon spaces? Would this solve the problem without the need for N more ship models (and the art that entails) being wasted on slight variations on existing ships?
The trade ship is a slight tweaked Atlas that obseletes the Atlas the way the Maud obseletes the Centaur. Again, leaving aside balance, the real question here is whether we couldn't just tweak the Atlas without completely losing its flavor. There is a trend here for everyone to demand that every style of ship be available with manueverability on the level of a Vulture. Why don't we just give everything Centurian mass and be done with it.
The freight ship assumes that ships much bigger than what we have now can be built just like super-heavy fighters. Eleven energy weapons doesn't do you much good if you have one battery. If foresee barrages of flares or yellow jackets. Might as well call the ship a 'missile boat' and be done with it. Besides which, thats an awefully small ship to be worth the trouble that having 11 weapons causes to the bandwidth. Weighing three times as much as the current ships is going to be problimatic if you only have one fighter sized engine. As the cross sectional area of a ship approaches 'broadside of a barn' its manueverability doesn't have to decrease as rapidly as it might in order to balance its heavy weapons and greater hull.
There are alot of threads going on right now where everyone is making willy nilly suggestions for changes in gameplay as if this was the final game and there wasn't going to be in the future many revolutionary new concepts which would totally alter the way the game was played.
This is another example of post with a good idea but an implementation based on not being able to look past the current state of the game. While the basic idea ("we need more types of usable trade ships") is good, there is a failure of imagination involved in figuring out how to fix it.
The blockade runner is a Centurian with extra cargo spaces. Leaving aside questions of balance, whats to keep future 'fighters' from mounting 'external cargo pods' and trade manueverability for more cargo space? What's to keep future ships from putting 'cargo box' gizmos in thier weapon spaces? Would this solve the problem without the need for N more ship models (and the art that entails) being wasted on slight variations on existing ships?
The trade ship is a slight tweaked Atlas that obseletes the Atlas the way the Maud obseletes the Centaur. Again, leaving aside balance, the real question here is whether we couldn't just tweak the Atlas without completely losing its flavor. There is a trend here for everyone to demand that every style of ship be available with manueverability on the level of a Vulture. Why don't we just give everything Centurian mass and be done with it.
The freight ship assumes that ships much bigger than what we have now can be built just like super-heavy fighters. Eleven energy weapons doesn't do you much good if you have one battery. If foresee barrages of flares or yellow jackets. Might as well call the ship a 'missile boat' and be done with it. Besides which, thats an awefully small ship to be worth the trouble that having 11 weapons causes to the bandwidth. Weighing three times as much as the current ships is going to be problimatic if you only have one fighter sized engine. As the cross sectional area of a ship approaches 'broadside of a barn' its manueverability doesn't have to decrease as rapidly as it might in order to balance its heavy weapons and greater hull.
There are alot of threads going on right now where everyone is making willy nilly suggestions for changes in gameplay as if this was the final game and there wasn't going to be in the future many revolutionary new concepts which would totally alter the way the game was played.
Celebrim - I'd like to say that Eldrad typed 1l(arge) not 11, which you are right in pointing out would be overkill.
Eldrad - I really like the idea of a very large very slow tradeship with the cargo capacity to make hiring (real) escorts economically viable, maybe still a little underarmed for my liking - I'd stick some light energy weapon turrets (that is, turrets that will fire of their own accord, like station defenses of old) on it, depending on its shape just for that little bit extra. HP is probably a little low for something that, I would imagine, would be quite a bit larger than a Centaur.
- and, and_but_red!, and_only_gold!
Eldrad - I really like the idea of a very large very slow tradeship with the cargo capacity to make hiring (real) escorts economically viable, maybe still a little underarmed for my liking - I'd stick some light energy weapon turrets (that is, turrets that will fire of their own accord, like station defenses of old) on it, depending on its shape just for that little bit extra. HP is probably a little low for something that, I would imagine, would be quite a bit larger than a Centaur.
- and, and_but_red!, and_only_gold!
Celebrim:
These ships were originally my proposal for replacing the current trade ships (except the marauder). When I proposed that people felt that these trade ships were no good against the current bots. The Blockade runner was a tweaked Atlas, and the trade ship was a tweaked centaur.
You might be right that the modularity of the future game would allow of cent -> blockade runner conversions, but that would be a jump from 2 to 10, which seems fairly extreme to me.
Before s15 was added I found that the Centaur was not as good a trading ship as the bus, any pirate would easily take you down. I feel that the marauder and centaur are completely different (and the centaur has no long term use in the game). Note also that the "blockade runner" has the agility of a vult, and the "trade ship" that of a hog.
11 eep! /me goes and capitalizes the 'l' there 'L'
3x? I said 2x and there are two reasons for this 1 they would be better off with an efficient engine because it will take them so long to reach max turbo speed, and 2 it will make any non mine extremely hard to use.
Also I've change the 25m to 20m (I had thought the centaur was 20m it is 14m)
Specifics vs Idea
Ok now that I've spent so much time in the details, let me say the don't matter. What I'm proposing is that traders fall into two categories, that will be effective in a MMOL game.
1) A fast/light armor few weapons ship so that 1 trader can avoid combat and bring goods from point a to b
OR
2) slow/hvy armor few weapons tons of cargo. Corporate freighters that pull large amounts of cargo either through 'safe' places or with large escorts.
These ships were originally my proposal for replacing the current trade ships (except the marauder). When I proposed that people felt that these trade ships were no good against the current bots. The Blockade runner was a tweaked Atlas, and the trade ship was a tweaked centaur.
You might be right that the modularity of the future game would allow of cent -> blockade runner conversions, but that would be a jump from 2 to 10, which seems fairly extreme to me.
Before s15 was added I found that the Centaur was not as good a trading ship as the bus, any pirate would easily take you down. I feel that the marauder and centaur are completely different (and the centaur has no long term use in the game). Note also that the "blockade runner" has the agility of a vult, and the "trade ship" that of a hog.
11 eep! /me goes and capitalizes the 'l' there 'L'
3x? I said 2x and there are two reasons for this 1 they would be better off with an efficient engine because it will take them so long to reach max turbo speed, and 2 it will make any non mine extremely hard to use.
Also I've change the 25m to 20m (I had thought the centaur was 20m it is 14m)
Specifics vs Idea
Ok now that I've spent so much time in the details, let me say the don't matter. What I'm proposing is that traders fall into two categories, that will be effective in a MMOL game.
1) A fast/light armor few weapons ship so that 1 trader can avoid combat and bring goods from point a to b
OR
2) slow/hvy armor few weapons tons of cargo. Corporate freighters that pull large amounts of cargo either through 'safe' places or with large escorts.
Well, I basically would like to divide traders into at least 3 categories:
1) Courier: For people that need to get a small amount somewhere in a hurry, but more than a fighter can carry. Manueverability on par with the best fighters, but one or _no_ weapon slots, very weak hull, and 8 or so cargo slots.
2) Merchantman: A converted attack craft. For people who are basically traders but need the flexibility to defend themselves at need. Manueverability on par with an attack craft, but slightly less hull, slightly less weapons, and 14 or so cargo.
3) Freighter: Very low manuverability, average hull, few weapons and 18 or so cargo.
The problem with this idea is that the existing Marauder just blows all three out of the water. Its a trader's dream giving up nothing - fast, cargo capacity, good weaponry and hull. Its fast so it accelerates through sectors quickly, reducing travel time. Its well enough armed to match a fighter, and nimble enough to out manuever an attack craft. AND it carries more cargo than any other vessel.
My personal preference would be lower the Marauder's cargo by 2 and increase the Centaur's cargo by 4.
As you observe, freighters don't have to have great hull. If you want a freighter with good manueverability and large cargo volume, it implies to me a lightly built unarmored hull that really can't take much of a pounding.
I've spent some time in Atlas's lately and they aren't so bad. I'm pretty sure I couldn't protect myself from a competant pirate, but that's OK. The ability to carry extra cargo should be a trade off from maximal combat ability. I was able to fend off 250 bots fairly well with only a normal gatling and a gemini launcher. The manueverability is painful especially with a medium engine, but not so painful that you can't get used to it and adjust your tactics.
Although the Centaur sucks compared to the Maud, I have seen it used well. Dual gatlings are fun vs. bots, but don't work so well vs. real players. But dual swarms or a combination of swarms and lightning mines make for a really nasty surprise for someone trying to overrun the ship. I'm not saying its going to stand its own versus a Valk or Hog in the hands of a competant pilot, but its not so bad or wouldn't be if the Maud wasn't so clearly better. Simply switching the cargo of the two to some degree would tempt more people into flying a heavy.
It was always harder to use a heavy well than it was to use a light well. I wonder sometimes if all this complaining about the manueverability of a ship is people trying to fly a heavy just like a light and not succeeding. Then again, if you consider that the old heavy was mounting the equivalent 4L and 2S weapons, you realize that all of the current heavies are slightly undergunned. Then again, all the lights are mounting less weapons too (3.1.x lights had roughly 1L and 2S) so it probably balances out. Are the ships unbalanced or are people just not taking the time to learn how to use them?
1) Courier: For people that need to get a small amount somewhere in a hurry, but more than a fighter can carry. Manueverability on par with the best fighters, but one or _no_ weapon slots, very weak hull, and 8 or so cargo slots.
2) Merchantman: A converted attack craft. For people who are basically traders but need the flexibility to defend themselves at need. Manueverability on par with an attack craft, but slightly less hull, slightly less weapons, and 14 or so cargo.
3) Freighter: Very low manuverability, average hull, few weapons and 18 or so cargo.
The problem with this idea is that the existing Marauder just blows all three out of the water. Its a trader's dream giving up nothing - fast, cargo capacity, good weaponry and hull. Its fast so it accelerates through sectors quickly, reducing travel time. Its well enough armed to match a fighter, and nimble enough to out manuever an attack craft. AND it carries more cargo than any other vessel.
My personal preference would be lower the Marauder's cargo by 2 and increase the Centaur's cargo by 4.
As you observe, freighters don't have to have great hull. If you want a freighter with good manueverability and large cargo volume, it implies to me a lightly built unarmored hull that really can't take much of a pounding.
I've spent some time in Atlas's lately and they aren't so bad. I'm pretty sure I couldn't protect myself from a competant pirate, but that's OK. The ability to carry extra cargo should be a trade off from maximal combat ability. I was able to fend off 250 bots fairly well with only a normal gatling and a gemini launcher. The manueverability is painful especially with a medium engine, but not so painful that you can't get used to it and adjust your tactics.
Although the Centaur sucks compared to the Maud, I have seen it used well. Dual gatlings are fun vs. bots, but don't work so well vs. real players. But dual swarms or a combination of swarms and lightning mines make for a really nasty surprise for someone trying to overrun the ship. I'm not saying its going to stand its own versus a Valk or Hog in the hands of a competant pilot, but its not so bad or wouldn't be if the Maud wasn't so clearly better. Simply switching the cargo of the two to some degree would tempt more people into flying a heavy.
It was always harder to use a heavy well than it was to use a light well. I wonder sometimes if all this complaining about the manueverability of a ship is people trying to fly a heavy just like a light and not succeeding. Then again, if you consider that the old heavy was mounting the equivalent 4L and 2S weapons, you realize that all of the current heavies are slightly undergunned. Then again, all the lights are mounting less weapons too (3.1.x lights had roughly 1L and 2S) so it probably balances out. Are the ships unbalanced or are people just not taking the time to learn how to use them?
18 cargo isn't enough to hire a player escort, and assuming the pirate's competent they can take down a centaur. I actually haven't tried taking out a centaur in a bus... so any ship but a bus. If you're in a fighter you can dodge swarms (otherwise turbo), as for lmines there are only 4 of them (per tube if the trader has two then they can be taken out at a slightly longer range), so shoot them as they're laid out. The thing about fighting 1on1 with the centaur is no matter how skilled its pilot is the fight will be determined by the skill of the pirate. Can the pirate deal with homers and mines? If they can they'll win even if they trader is twice as good as them.
My problem with the current traders (other than marauder) isn't that the marauder out does them, that's the nature of specials at the moment, but the following:
a) They can't beat any ships in a fight (this is good because they're not fighting ships)
b) They can't out run anyships except the heaviest bombers.
c) They don't carry enough cargo to hire player escorts
Given these three things there isn't much a trader can do against pirates. Since this will be a mmol game it's reasonable to assume that there will be a player pirate on any profitable trade route.
If we had a ship that fell into your first catagory and second catagory it would be fine that the marauder blew them out of the water. I don't think the way you've described the Freighter will enhance game play in the long run... but that's just a guess.
My problem with the current traders (other than marauder) isn't that the marauder out does them, that's the nature of specials at the moment, but the following:
a) They can't beat any ships in a fight (this is good because they're not fighting ships)
b) They can't out run anyships except the heaviest bombers.
c) They don't carry enough cargo to hire player escorts
Given these three things there isn't much a trader can do against pirates. Since this will be a mmol game it's reasonable to assume that there will be a player pirate on any profitable trade route.
If we had a ship that fell into your first catagory and second catagory it would be fine that the marauder blew them out of the water. I don't think the way you've described the Freighter will enhance game play in the long run... but that's just a guess.
Eldrad, why do you want traders to have extremely high maneuverability? I've actually got a different suggestion...
Freighter:
Corvet-Class Vessel
Uses Corvette-Class engines, faster than fighter engines by 25%
Very low maneuverability
Avg hull
2 L ports, 0 S ports
25+ cargo
That way it can outrun pirates, but not fight for jack.
Freighter:
Corvet-Class Vessel
Uses Corvette-Class engines, faster than fighter engines by 25%
Very low maneuverability
Avg hull
2 L ports, 0 S ports
25+ cargo
That way it can outrun pirates, but not fight for jack.
Eldrad: Well, again, I'm assuming all of the above ships are entry level trading craft that even in a final game a new player could reasonably move into (and out of a bus) in the first 20 hours of gameplay. I'm not percluding the possibility of larger and significantly more expensive vessels which it would be profitable to 'hire' escorts. But for that we have to go back to some of the ideas in the 'semi-capital ship' thread.
The idea would be that the Centaur or other freighter model would provide reasonably good profitability on low risk runs inside factional space, but that you'd probably want to move to a courier model or merchantman model for your first runs into lawless space or between factional space. You are right in that its impact on the current game would probably be small. Even if we do as I suggest and roughly switch the cargo capacity of the Centaur and the Marauder, the Marauder will still out do the Centaur both because it can complete a trade route much quicker and because its alot more likely to actually reach its destination. But the Marauder won't outdo the Centaur quite so completely. The current situation is similar to Vulture vs. Valk prior to the Valk's hull being dropped to a more reasonable level. Not having perfect parity is ok. Not having any parity is not so fun.
As maybe the least fight worthy ship available at present they need to have something to show for it.
The idea would be that the Centaur or other freighter model would provide reasonably good profitability on low risk runs inside factional space, but that you'd probably want to move to a courier model or merchantman model for your first runs into lawless space or between factional space. You are right in that its impact on the current game would probably be small. Even if we do as I suggest and roughly switch the cargo capacity of the Centaur and the Marauder, the Marauder will still out do the Centaur both because it can complete a trade route much quicker and because its alot more likely to actually reach its destination. But the Marauder won't outdo the Centaur quite so completely. The current situation is similar to Vulture vs. Valk prior to the Valk's hull being dropped to a more reasonable level. Not having perfect parity is ok. Not having any parity is not so fun.
As maybe the least fight worthy ship available at present they need to have something to show for it.
Roguelazer: at the moment maneuverability is both turning and accel (which is the way I think it should stay) and only engines effect the max speed. So my suggestion was based on not changing the fudementals but adding ships that work within the current rules because I don't know what the devs will do in the future.
Celebrim: You're right that a large frieghter would probably be a more expencive non-entry ship, and somthing like the centaur would have a place as a trader within 'safe' areas. In that case I would say up the cargo (18-20), get rid of atleast 1 of the weapon ports and put something in the description telling players it's going to get killed if it's attacked. I don't know what you could call it to imply that something along the lines of 'unarmed' would be good (except for the obvious confusion that would cause).
Celebrim: You're right that a large frieghter would probably be a more expencive non-entry ship, and somthing like the centaur would have a place as a trader within 'safe' areas. In that case I would say up the cargo (18-20), get rid of atleast 1 of the weapon ports and put something in the description telling players it's going to get killed if it's attacked. I don't know what you could call it to imply that something along the lines of 'unarmed' would be good (except for the obvious confusion that would cause).
Erm... where did I mention acceleration? I'm talking top speed. If it had higher acceleration, then killing it would be impossible. But with a higher top speed, you could ambush it.