There are a lot of things that need to be fixed and changed with factions and temp KoS and so on. We're working on that. Due to schedule challenges, I'm aiming for a simple first-gen implementation of the factional conflict exclusivity that we've all wanted for years and years. That being the following:

- Certain factions are opposed to one another, and dislike to see their allies also working with their enemies, meaning that you can never have "ideal" standing with both sides of a conflict at the same time. In case anyone didn't read the other zillion threads about this.

- This point of mutual exclusion, for right now, will be at the transition between Respect and Admire. Any points gained over that will be lost with the opposing side, until the side losing standing drops to the top of "Respect", after which it will not lose any further. Thus one could theoretically be PoS with one and Respected by the other, or halfway into "Admire" on both.

- People who are PoS with both sides of a conflict will be prompted on login which 'side' they wish to maintain. The other will be dropped to the top of Respect.

- The factions that have mutual exclusivity will be: Serco/Itani, Axia/Valent. The latter may surprise some people, as it hasn't been expounded on much, but it's actually mentioned in the backstory.

- This just a simple implementation to see how things work. I'm aware that standing may be stupidly easy to gain back in some cases, and stupidly easy to lose in others, and clearly we have issues in various other areas. This is not an all-encompassing uber Faction Fix thing. This is a step, and one I want to make.. uhh.. well, later today if possible.

That's all for now. I won't get into the recent delays, it should suffice to say that I'm just trying to get something simple out there as soon as possible to improve things and get us on better footing for approaching some of the other faction related issues.

I'm also not kidding about the "implemented later today" thing (where "today" is in the next 24 hours). We're really pushing to get something out Real Soon Now. But I will endeavor to check this thread for feedback or concerns.

As a player i can see the need to limit opposing factions (Mainly Itani, Serco). As a player that has carefully maintained a neutral stance in this conflict by not joining the military side of either faction for years. I do not like the fact that i now have to chose on login a side. I can accept not being POS with either side. But my years of good service and neutrality to both sides. I should be able to maintain a high admire with both sides. If there is a way for me to do this over time i am all for the change. If not i feel cheated by following a very neutral route all these years becuase of what was hinted at by joining a military of either side when UiT could join. As far as Valent and Axia i have understood their disagreements between each other. But since they are profit driven again i feel i should be able to maintain a very high admire between the 2. If i so choose to take a side in either conflict i accept the consequence of gaining higher standing with one or the other. But it should be my choice.

You'll be able to achieve middle-Admire with both sides, for now. I don't think that's unreasonable, all things considered. But, I do understand and appreciate that the exclusion is going to be an adjustment for some. I do appreciate the value of people's carefully accumulated and managed standings. This will make the management and tradeoffs a bit more complex, but to the betterment of the game as a whole.

But that perception of faction standing - that a neutral trader should be able to be "high admire" with both sides - is exactly the problem this is designed to fix. "Admire", in my view, should be reserved largely for heroes to the cause, or otherwise inspirational figures (and "Pillar of Society" for only the most truly outstanding individuals). Should a trader, even an influential one, be able to command that sort of respect from both sides? Not to imply the faction system even approximates real-world mechanics, but even letting people be halfway through "Admire" on both sides to me seems overly generous - I'd personally cap standing at (at most) "Respect" for one side in a mutually exclusive pair if you go into "Admire" or above with the other.

That aside, this is a long-awaited and very welcome step in the right direction. I look forward to seeing the Faction Redux take further shape.

I originally planned to be less.. generous with the exclusivity tradeoff. For right now, I'm just aiming for a simple number to give this a shot, without creating too chaotic of a controversy.

Nothing is ever cast in stone, either way, and things can be tweaked down the road. This is just a first-gen version to "get it in there" for now.

Eonis i can fully understand a nationalist point of view. I am not a nationalist is my point. If some one has picked a side either threw character national choice or by joining the military of either side. i agree they should have to choose between the 2 exclusively. If they are adfmire with one they are hated by the other, this makes total sense.

I think this is a good first step. I'm a little worried about where you said, "...or halfway into "Admire" on both." Since Admire starts at 600 and goes to 999 (in the game display), this is a span of 399 points which puts halfway at 799.5. Would this be enough to accurately prevent a person with a balanced maximum Serco/Itani faction from purchasing either a Valkyrie or Prometheus (800 necessary for either)? In order to make things a little more clear-cut, I wonder if a 750 maximum balanced faction wouldn't be better.

As a further expansion on the mechanic, and to better model the relations between the Serco and itani, I wonder if it would be possible to have such characters lose 200% of standing gained through kills and some high-profile missions from the opposing faction. For example, if an Itani kills an Itani CtC transport, they would gain 2 standing with the Serco and lose 4 standing with the Itani. Trade missions could perhaps have a lesser disparity in the gain/loss ratio. Clandestine missions would not impose a faction loss. This would allow for some interesting missions to be created allowing players to secretively increase their standing, but not so much as to upset the aforementioned balance (i.e. if an Itani is POS with Itani, they still couldn't reach higher than respected with Serco.

UIT of course shouldn't be as severely affected.

draugath as a UiT i think if they participate in the examples that you gave. They should be penalized more from both sides. This is an RPG and should have some severe consequences to actions. Is why we are given several characters to play.

Would this be enough to accurately prevent a person with a balanced maximum Serco/Itani faction from purchasing either a Valkyrie or Prometheus (800 necessary for either)? In order to make things a little more clear-cut, I wonder if a 750 maximum balanced faction wouldn't be better.

That's a good point, and yes, I agree with making it more clear-cut. I wasn't sure if I was going to change the ship requirements or the number, so I started with this number and the thought of perhaps raising the ship requirements later. There's also a bit of a translation from the way standing is actually handled in the game, vs where it's displayed in the client, so.. I came up with these to make things a bit simpler for Ray. But they're easy to change. Although tweaking the ship requirements is even easier.

I also support the idea of further expansions of the system to handle various different mechanics for gain and loss situations.. but those concepts are beyond the current topic of discussion. For right now, this is just simply about the simple mutual exclusion, where it hinges and how it works.

Let me clarify after Inc.'s post. As a Player i am all for this change.

Fair enough, lets see how it goes.

I'm also not kidding about the "implemented later today" thing (where "today" is in the next 24 hours). We're really pushing to get something out Real Soon Now. But I will endeavor to check this thread for feedback or concerns.

Real Soon Now (TM) ?

:P Just kidding.. Keep up the good work

I agree with this change and I would also agree with Eonis in giving the standing some more actual meaning.

In my RP interpretation, "respect" is the most a neutral player should get: e.g. Itan respects neutral traders and admits them into their territory and will protect them from harm. Levels up to 'respect' can be earned by trading and procurement missions, eg being a good citizen.

"admire" is something reserved for people who are actively promoting the cause. I feel that Itan should never 'admire' someone who trades with the enemy. Also, I feel that 'admiration' can only be earned by "military" style missions, eg skirmishes, secret assignments etc. I feel that special weapons should be available only to admire status and repairs etc should be free or cheaper (not that money matters so much...)

As a case in point, under Dutch law if you help an enemy at war you can be imprisoned for up to 30 (!) years. Under the OP proposal, you can be admired by Itan even while you're actively helping the Serco cause...

Concretely, I would suggest, taking Itan and Serco as example:

- any standing point gained with serco drops your itan until you are at 'respect' with itan
- any standing point gained with serco above respect drops your itan standing unconditionally
- a player with standing above respect with both itan and serco will be given 3 choices: align with itan, keeping itan standing dropping serco rating to respect minus the itan points above respect; align with serco; or remain neutral, dropping both ratings to "respect".

Yay this won't affect me at all that means I've been playing correctly for years!

You'll be able to achieve middle-Admire with both sides, for now.

So, basically just a cosmetic change. I guess it's a start!

Meh, so like wont affect me. Tri KOS will still be dead easy to get.

Weak. Mutual respect should be the highest a neutral person can hope to achieve, and then only by very careful work. Being admired by one side of a war should mean being disliked by the other. Obviously.

If you're trying to get there by steps to reduce the pain for whiny entitled traders, you should consider that each step will reopen the wound. Just do it, endure the wangst, and move on. It will be less pain for everybody, in the long run.

Yes, don't be too conservative with the change. Eonis and vanatteveldt have the right idea.

You'll be able to achieve middle-Admire with both sides, for now.

So, basically just a cosmetic change. I guess it's a start!

+1 :/

We all know it'll hilarious explode and we'll all end up with super mega KOS or POS with all 4 of the above factions, so its good they are starting small so only a handful of us have to amusingly prod around in corvus for a week before the update fix

Small change is good.