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Why VO PvP combat is flawed: the missing piece

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Jan 12, 2015 joylessjoker link
...

I have the shortest post in the entire thread. I win.
Jan 12, 2015 csgno1 link
No you didn't :)
Jan 12, 2015 csgno1 link
A permanent arena will be great when we have 20x the current player base. Until then there is no point because it will just draw combat oriented players away from the actual game. If we get one now it should be available for only a few hours only a few times per week, and more often when there are more players.

Savet had some good ideas that could be implemented easily. I think bots in grey space should not be excluded from station and WH sectors. Just tweak them to stay outside of the NFZ until they attain a certain sized presence.
Jan 12, 2015 joylessjoker link
.
Jan 12, 2015 joylessjoker link
I WON!
Jan 12, 2015 Surbius link
This thread...


Want some dedication to PvP? Dedicate yourself to hosting said PvP. Btw, where's Nation War? Have you all finally took it behind the shed and put it out of its misery?
Jan 12, 2015 greenwall link
Captain -- I disagree there needs to be a goal behind a PvP arena other than "to shoot people". I would say at least 80% of people I encounter in grayspace are routinely looking for someone to shoot for the sake of shooting people. People (including me) simply idle in b8 or other more populous crossroads for the chance PvP encounter, but we hold our fire in most cases either out of respect, honor, or fear of being destroyed by people with superior skill.

Savet's idea to make Hive attack in ways that affect gameplay more directly is a good one in general, but I feel it would have a much weaker (and possibly no) impact on the problem I have outlined. Afterall, we've already had dev attempts to use PvE to inspire PvP and they have failed to hold any sustained effort (Leviathans, Deneb, Border Blockades).

More over, using PvE to encourage group interaction might also take away players who might otherwise be interested in PvP.

Surbius, thank you for all your years hosting NW. That was a great example of how we can all assemble for the sake of large group PvP within a structure of rules that made things feel "fair". I just don't think it's the player's responsibility to make this stuff happen ultimately. I place that responsibility directly in Guild Software's court... I mean, if someone wants to commit themselves to organizing an event, fine, but that should be the exception.
Jan 12, 2015 Savet link
I'm going to share my observations from yesterday, and a very simple proposed fix based on my observations and prior suggestions over the years.

There was a reasonably largish battle between FAMY/ONE and TGFT/PA/ITAN yesterday. It was a very good battle from both sides. Kills were made, the battle shifted sectors across the Edras system, it was fun overall.

As the battle started dwindling, I noticed one player that would jump into the battle, fight until his ship was at about 35% health, then run to repair. I'm not naming names here, and I understand why he didn't want to lose his Valk....he can't buy them anymore....but this behavior causes:

1. His team to be impacted by his unwillingness to support them in the fight.
2. Members of the other team to practice similar behavior to avoid giving kills to someone they view as using "cheap tactics"
3. A general unwillingness to engage in large scale battles because of "runners"

The suggestion:

Once armor is < 50%, cut turbo thrust by 50%.

The benefits:

1. It becomes harder to run when the battle turns against you but your combat ability is not hampered in the fight at hand.
2. Your team benefits because you actually stay to finish the fight.
3. It reduces animosity on the opposing side because it's harder to disengage from a fight you are losing.
Jan 12, 2015 greenwall link
Savet, your suggestion deserves it's own thread, and would do nothing to encourage large group PvP.

Furthermore, Cellsafemode recently suggested something very similar, perhaps you missed it:

http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/29409
Jan 12, 2015 Savet link
I did miss it, and never claim that any suggestion I make is wholly unique.

My suggestion though would not hinder a pilot in combat whereas cell's suggestion of limiting recharge would hamper a pilot's combat ability.

But I don't mind making my own thread. I just wanted to keep the discussion in one place.
Jan 12, 2015 biretak link
Maybe ones turbo ability should be proportional to the damage of their ship? I like that idea. At 100% you have 100% of the turbo available to you and it goes down from there.

more hive stuff at grey wh's and stations would be good too :)
Jan 13, 2015 Pizzasgood link
Getting back to the OP...

That's basically what Deneb is supposed to be. It's a military conflict, so it's naturally going to tend toward structured group fights, and the military reimburses you for your ships so that you can focus more on fighting and less on making money. Of course, it needs a lot of work. But my point is, improving on Deneb and the military system in general is the best way to achieve what you're looking for, and it can do it in a way that is immersive and contained within the overall universe.
Jan 13, 2015 smittens link
This game is not in any way lacking for ways to "focus" PvP

We have an arena; it's called Sedina B-8

We have a whole system with ongoing coop & competitive conflict, as well as multiple conq stations

We have capships & player-instigated fights to offer an even more dynamic experience, when both sides can stomach it.

Stop me if you've heard this one before... but I've played this game off and on for over 10 years now. As someone whose main interest is the awesome combat aspect, I've paid a lot of attention to it, and seen the PvP go through all sorts of ebb and flow. There have been plenty of occasions with very active and shockingly friendly (or at least sporting) PvP, and most of these periods of time were before player-capships or conquerable stations. Furthermore, the player base was WAY smaller.

The devs have added a ton of things that only give PvP MORE focus and meaning. It's come a long, long way. AND we have more players joining than ever before.

Adding more PvP 'features' won't fix the broken aspects of what is already a very impressive PvP engine

There are a number of broken aspects that are severely hampering PvP right now, and if any of these can get fixed then you'll find that we do already have a very nice playground for combat.

1. Size of the universe. Even with all the new players we have, there still simply isn't enough purely emergent conflict. Deneb has been a great new PvP focus, but ever since the first implementation of Border Patrol it has just been too far away. It's a pain for players to get between Deneb & Gray space, and it doesn't make any sense to separate the two most action packed parts of the universe by 15+ minutes of almost-certainly-boring travel.

2. Hurt feelings. PvP is an inherently zero sum game; one person is going to walk away unhappy after most fights. Vendetta specifically has a number of aspects that exacerbate this: combat lasts much longer than fights in most FPS/PvP games. Skill plays a large part, so it can be a real ego hit to lose. Being an MMO, and a smallish one at that, players repeatedly come into conflict with the same people, and it becomes even more personal.

3. Imbalance. The two main conflicts are Itani v Serco, and "Trade" vs. Pirates. Unfortunately, these conflicts are not very competitive. In both fights, one side has far more players, active time ingame, and most importantly: experience.

4. Ninny-ness. (2) & (3) combine for a lot of nastiness, by all parties. Excessive trash-talk, lots of running, and most egregiously-- stupidity.. these aspects all combine and perpetuate each other. This situation should be familiar to everyone:

Player A + his friends kill Player Z. Player Z either gives up because it's now an imbalanced fight, or talks shit, or does both. Player Z encounters Player A again, and for whatever reason (skill, numbers, luck) has the advantage. Player A still remembers that Z was kind of a whiney dick, and/or that Z refuses to fight without a good chance of winning.

Why the heck would Player A stick around and give Z a kill? So, as 90% of people would do, Player A runs. And probably talks some shit to cover the ego hit. Now Player Z is even MORE pissed, and even LESS likely to give Player A any sort of chance in the future to kill them. Lather, rinse, repeat.

----------------------------

That's a lot of text... but, those are the main issues stunting the growth of combat in VO. Not a lack of an arena or other PvP focus, or more structure. We have plenty of those (thanks devs!) What we need is fixes

1. Please please please give us a quick travel option between GR/Deneb & Sedina/Odia. We've been begging for it since the first hint of structured PvP in Deneb, and despite all the new players, we still need it. It can be temporary, or have some cost, but holy hell do we need it. If you described to me a game that was really really cool but the two best combat modes had 15 minutes of downtime to switch between them... I would have a hard time believing the "really really cool" part, because 15 minutes of downtime is unheard of in modern gaming

2 & 3 are pretty inherent, and have always existed to some extent. They aren't necessarily game-breaking, but they are fundamental and so must be kept in mind... ANYTHING that can be done to mitigate them would be really useful

4. Very tough to counter in the current poisonous atmosphere. I think Savet's idea of severely cutting turbo thrust after a certain amount of damage would be very helpful. But mostly I think the majority of this community that is responsible and mentally capable of keeping a level head, remembering it's just a game, etc etc, is going to have to do just that, and hopefully the really obnoxious toxic minority will eventually be squeezed out.
Jan 13, 2015 greenwall link
Good thought smittens....

+1 to a shortcut to Deneb. It MIGHT make difference in participation. The longstanding serco gripes about unfairness would still remain unaddressed, but perhaps others might lend a hand to the serco fight if it weren't so far away. If the serco side doesn't get more skilled pilots involved, nothing will fix Deneb.

Remember Deneb is ultimately PvE -- it's not the same as large group PvP in gray space. The strategies for winning primarily focus on capship destruction. But, either way, it would be a seemingly simple fix worth trying.

Re: Hurt Feelings -- I feel that applies primarily to smaller PvP situations. I think for the most part people aren't as bothered when it comes to large group PvP.

I still don't see how Savet's idea addresses the OP in any way. How does preventing people from running from fights relieve the poisonous atmosphwere you speak of, and how does it bring more people together? If I knew that I couldn't turbo away if I took damage, I would avoid more fights than I currently do -- and I know I'm not alone in that line of thinking.
Jan 13, 2015 smittens link
TLDR; you're all wrong, except csgno, Savet, Surb, and Pizzasgood :D

And the most cost effective solutions that could have a real impact are Savet's "Lower Turbo-Thrust After Some Amount of Damage" and one of the oldest suggestions in the book, "CONNECT DENEB AND GRAY!"
Jan 13, 2015 smittens link
Running plays into point 4. Savet's sounds like an original suggestion for a quick but possibly very effective fix.

I wish there were similarly simple solutions to deal with the most toxic elements, but any MMO is always going to have some extraordinarily whiney people who cry "hax" and pout to the detriment of everyone's gameplay. For now, a small fix for a smaller part of the problem is at least a tiny step forwards :)
Jan 13, 2015 greenwall link
I simply do not see runners as a limiting factor in frequency of large group PvP. It might be annoying, but it's not the cause. Therefore fixing it is not the solution.
Jan 13, 2015 smittens link
Running is not the limiting factor. There isn't even one limiting factor! But one of the big problems is the self-perpetuating escalation of dickishness, of which running plays a not-insignificant part. Unless you or anyone else has any solid ideas for fixing the larger issue (ie, make all players a bit more patient and respectful), I think Savet's idea is a good small fix for one annoying aspect, that (to me) doesn't seem to have any negative ramifications. If you can suggest any, I'm all ears!
Jan 13, 2015 greenwall link
Smittens: See OP.
Jan 13, 2015 smittens link
Er, I did? That's what prompted my post, moreso than any of the replies (which I admit I got a little skim-y with)