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Nobody's stopping ANYONE from typing /leave 100
Similarly, making 100 non-global chat and actually enforcing that restriction will 1) piss off a lot of people for no good goddamn reason, and 2) result in a "new 100" channel being settled upon by the group. Indeed, 100 is totally arbitrary already - you have to figure out how to join it, unlike 1 or 11.
Similarly, making 100 non-global chat and actually enforcing that restriction will 1) piss off a lot of people for no good goddamn reason, and 2) result in a "new 100" channel being settled upon by the group. Indeed, 100 is totally arbitrary already - you have to figure out how to join it, unlike 1 or 11.
Fine, call it global chat. That's not the point though. Whatever the IRC permissions are for global chat could be dumbed down to the system level or even the nation level, where 100 = UIT space, Serco space, Smurf space and grey space but not restricted to those nation's characters.
This would be a good starting point, though i prefer the system based chat.
Things aren't likely to change because we have people that like the sound of their own voice and need a megaphone and pulpit from which to speak. The audience is there for better or worse. There are players in the game that would cycle through alts just to participate in a system-centric chat.
Mentoring and hanging out in nation space may actually become a thing again. Perhaps Incarnate could sweeten the deal with more mentor goodies!
: )
This would be a good starting point, though i prefer the system based chat.
Things aren't likely to change because we have people that like the sound of their own voice and need a megaphone and pulpit from which to speak. The audience is there for better or worse. There are players in the game that would cycle through alts just to participate in a system-centric chat.
Mentoring and hanging out in nation space may actually become a thing again. Perhaps Incarnate could sweeten the deal with more mentor goodies!
: )
I may have missed what I'm going to suggest skimming over the threads, if it was mentioned.
There's a lot of talk about trying to overhaul the chat system or trying to get more moderation (because obviously some people can't moderate themselves, and it's not limited to just VO).
As has been stated, overhauling the chat channels (ie changing their focus or range) doesn't fix the problem and introduces other problems. Getting more moderators isn't a simple solution either.
Obviously /ignore and /leave are options, but often they aren't very palatable. "/vote mute" doesn't have the impact many would desire either, due to not enough subscribed players being online that agree with the problem.
The only other alternative in the most egregious cases is to go to the website and submit a ticket.
Why is it necessary to go to the website?
Every other game I've played has the ability to report such behavior from within the game. Adding more robust reporting from in-game won't magically fix things, but it would make it easier for players on all platforms to be heard.
Nothing can be done if it's not reported or witnessed, and having to add the step of going to the website and possibly finding and editing your errors.log just to get a chat snippet is a lot of extra steps, especially when you're already drawn thin emotionally by the specific encounter.
Considering the minimal staff available, I'm not suggesting in-game reports necessarily set off klaxons that get immediate attention, but if they could be logged in a queue to be handled by the next available dev/guide at least that would be something.
There's a lot of talk about trying to overhaul the chat system or trying to get more moderation (because obviously some people can't moderate themselves, and it's not limited to just VO).
As has been stated, overhauling the chat channels (ie changing their focus or range) doesn't fix the problem and introduces other problems. Getting more moderators isn't a simple solution either.
Obviously /ignore and /leave are options, but often they aren't very palatable. "/vote mute" doesn't have the impact many would desire either, due to not enough subscribed players being online that agree with the problem.
The only other alternative in the most egregious cases is to go to the website and submit a ticket.
Why is it necessary to go to the website?
Every other game I've played has the ability to report such behavior from within the game. Adding more robust reporting from in-game won't magically fix things, but it would make it easier for players on all platforms to be heard.
Nothing can be done if it's not reported or witnessed, and having to add the step of going to the website and possibly finding and editing your errors.log just to get a chat snippet is a lot of extra steps, especially when you're already drawn thin emotionally by the specific encounter.
Considering the minimal staff available, I'm not suggesting in-game reports necessarily set off klaxons that get immediate attention, but if they could be logged in a queue to be handled by the next available dev/guide at least that would be something.
If someone jsut reveiws the chat logs it wouldn't matter when they were online. This notion that there has to be real time moderation is what let's the offenders get away with it.
If they knew chat logs would be reveiwed and punishment issued as I suggested and that first guy to push the limit gets banned watch how fast the 100 chat changes.
Right now there is not enough of a discouargement for such behaviour. I would even wager that after the first couple of 1 week bans are handed out it would really cahnge things.
If they knew chat logs would be reveiwed and punishment issued as I suggested and that first guy to push the limit gets banned watch how fast the 100 chat changes.
Right now there is not enough of a discouargement for such behaviour. I would even wager that after the first couple of 1 week bans are handed out it would really cahnge things.
In the end all of this is predicated on the notion that the chat on 100 is wrong in some fashion.
The simple fact is that what you consider to be right or wrong does not actually apply to the community as a whole. If the overall community decided that the chat on 100 was wrong it would in fact cease to exist. Either the community would move to a different channel or they would in fact mute the offenders.
Just because a few individuals are offended by the antics of 100 does not mean that 100 is in fact toxic.
Face it:
Incarnate is not going to waste resources to police 100.
There is no way to automatically filter the conversation to a single standard.
You do not have the right to impose your morality on others.
If you are dissatisfied with the conversations on 100 then /leave it and censor your self. The world does not have to live to your standards and is not responsible for the filth you choose to listen to.
Pick a different channel.
Put up a list of your ideations numbering roughly ten.
Revel smugly while the rest of us make merry.
The simple fact is that what you consider to be right or wrong does not actually apply to the community as a whole. If the overall community decided that the chat on 100 was wrong it would in fact cease to exist. Either the community would move to a different channel or they would in fact mute the offenders.
Just because a few individuals are offended by the antics of 100 does not mean that 100 is in fact toxic.
Face it:
Incarnate is not going to waste resources to police 100.
There is no way to automatically filter the conversation to a single standard.
You do not have the right to impose your morality on others.
If you are dissatisfied with the conversations on 100 then /leave it and censor your self. The world does not have to live to your standards and is not responsible for the filth you choose to listen to.
Pick a different channel.
Put up a list of your ideations numbering roughly ten.
Revel smugly while the rest of us make merry.
"If you are dissatisfied with the conversations on 100 then /leave..."
100 is roleplay and community, you really think /leave is a solution?
Noobs come to this game looking for community and guidance where the tutorials fall short. They join 100 and see salty BS and leave. The conversations are disconnected from what they are doing in Sol II or Itani capital. Leaving 100 takes away the community, thats not a solution.
100 is roleplay and community, you really think /leave is a solution?
Noobs come to this game looking for community and guidance where the tutorials fall short. They join 100 and see salty BS and leave. The conversations are disconnected from what they are doing in Sol II or Itani capital. Leaving 100 takes away the community, thats not a solution.
PaKettle;
Your -1 has been noted. But let me remind YOU, "what you consider to be right or wrong does not actually apply to the community as a whole". As best I can tell, there are 7 people in this thread who think 100 is actually a problem that detracts from the experience for new and old players. Compared to 3 who think it's ok & /ignore etc can solve it. And I know you're not suggesting that the large majority of players who don't know about the forums, who probably don't even know that /leave, /ignore, /mute exist should count as an explicit vote in favor of the status quo
So maybe you should read the room before you come in and start trying to make declarations about what "the community" wants. This is a thread to poll people, and so far the poll disagrees with you
draugath;
Personally I think that something as high-involvement as tickets should have a bit of barrier. If users can't put in a little effort, it's probably not worth reporting by ticket anyway
Lecter;
The issue is that a lot of the people who /leave 100 do so because the current level of spam & political talk is obnoxious. That just leaves 100 as a place for spam and political talk
Are you active these days? 100 isn't like it used to be, where people would rage but overall it was a fun chatroom that was mostly self-moderated by the community. There were times when things got serious, but those were relatively few and far between. Now it's pretty much exclusively for trash talk, spam, politics. When people tire of that and leave, they just end up talking among their guilds/groups. There's no migration to a more relaxed & "constructive" channel, because mass channel migrations really aren't a thing like you seem to think
Also I believe that /100 IS joined by default right now. /1 is the active starting channel, but users can see everything from 100
Ore;
You make pretty good points in favor of System chat. And something important to keep in mind is that it would excuse the quietness. It's space-- you don't expect to see chat transmissions from every end of the universe. Chat will be plenty active in gray and busy systems, and quiet ones will be TRULY quiet. Could be pretty cool
But all that said, I worry about the logistics of a switch like this. I hope Inc can chime in soon about all this.
Inevitable;
The problem is that noobs don't really know /ignore. Also from what I've seen, a lot of players who used to contribute good conversation have chosen to /leave 100 rather than /ignore every new noob spamming their tempguild
Phaser;
I think it's pretty clear that Ore isn't speaking literally about numbers. Especially since, as is mentioned in here, no one CAN know actual numbers. I understand your concern, misinformation is never good.... but if the only evidence that people have to look back on is random posts on the suggestions forum.... that's not really Ore's fault.
Devs could publish real numbers if they want real numbers known. Otherwise, the only numbers that will be out there are the conjecture & hyperbole of players
Luxen;
Agreed, -1 to making /1 nation-specific
Pizzas;
As mentioned above, I think quietness in System-only is actually ok and on-theme. BUT I think you've got the best & most succinct presentation of what I think is the best solution. I'm gonna edit it in to the OP!
Your -1 has been noted. But let me remind YOU, "what you consider to be right or wrong does not actually apply to the community as a whole". As best I can tell, there are 7 people in this thread who think 100 is actually a problem that detracts from the experience for new and old players. Compared to 3 who think it's ok & /ignore etc can solve it. And I know you're not suggesting that the large majority of players who don't know about the forums, who probably don't even know that /leave, /ignore, /mute exist should count as an explicit vote in favor of the status quo
So maybe you should read the room before you come in and start trying to make declarations about what "the community" wants. This is a thread to poll people, and so far the poll disagrees with you
draugath;
Personally I think that something as high-involvement as tickets should have a bit of barrier. If users can't put in a little effort, it's probably not worth reporting by ticket anyway
Lecter;
The issue is that a lot of the people who /leave 100 do so because the current level of spam & political talk is obnoxious. That just leaves 100 as a place for spam and political talk
Are you active these days? 100 isn't like it used to be, where people would rage but overall it was a fun chatroom that was mostly self-moderated by the community. There were times when things got serious, but those were relatively few and far between. Now it's pretty much exclusively for trash talk, spam, politics. When people tire of that and leave, they just end up talking among their guilds/groups. There's no migration to a more relaxed & "constructive" channel, because mass channel migrations really aren't a thing like you seem to think
Also I believe that /100 IS joined by default right now. /1 is the active starting channel, but users can see everything from 100
Ore;
You make pretty good points in favor of System chat. And something important to keep in mind is that it would excuse the quietness. It's space-- you don't expect to see chat transmissions from every end of the universe. Chat will be plenty active in gray and busy systems, and quiet ones will be TRULY quiet. Could be pretty cool
But all that said, I worry about the logistics of a switch like this. I hope Inc can chime in soon about all this.
Inevitable;
The problem is that noobs don't really know /ignore. Also from what I've seen, a lot of players who used to contribute good conversation have chosen to /leave 100 rather than /ignore every new noob spamming their tempguild
Phaser;
I think it's pretty clear that Ore isn't speaking literally about numbers. Especially since, as is mentioned in here, no one CAN know actual numbers. I understand your concern, misinformation is never good.... but if the only evidence that people have to look back on is random posts on the suggestions forum.... that's not really Ore's fault.
Devs could publish real numbers if they want real numbers known. Otherwise, the only numbers that will be out there are the conjecture & hyperbole of players
Luxen;
Agreed, -1 to making /1 nation-specific
Pizzas;
As mentioned above, I think quietness in System-only is actually ok and on-theme. BUT I think you've got the best & most succinct presentation of what I think is the best solution. I'm gonna edit it in to the OP!
WELL SAID Ore. I'm gonna stick that in the OP too
"The simple fact is that what you consider to be right or wrong does not actually apply to the community as a whole."
That is why there is an RoC and Be Nice guidelines. As stated previously this is a game not a democracy. Guild Software determines what is and is not acceptable behaviour.
That is why there is an RoC and Be Nice guidelines. As stated previously this is a game not a democracy. Guild Software determines what is and is not acceptable behaviour.
myacumen yes, but PaKettle does make a good point that if the majority of the playerbase doesn't want a more "on-topic" 100, then it shouldn't happen
However, this thread so far seems evidence that the majority of the playerbase does want it
However, this thread so far seems evidence that the majority of the playerbase does want it
"That is why there is an RoC and Be Nice guidelines."
Lets face it, RoC and Be-nice policies are broken nightly. Clearly moderation is failing.
Lets face it, RoC and Be-nice policies are broken nightly. Clearly moderation is failing.
You cant fix humans with tech... The only thing that would help is more moderation or a better vote mute system (which i already made a suggestion for, or a starting idea).
For me, eliminating global 100 (and every other channel that can be switched to) would probably reduce some but not all of the negativity that can be displayed on 100. However, I am more in favor of this for two reasons...
1) To increase the use and relevance of nation the nation specific channel which I think might help coordinate more nationalism.
2) Create different conversation zones. As a player moves between systems different people having conversations would shift the atmosphere and game experience rather than a single experience dominated by a few more chatty people.
1) To increase the use and relevance of nation the nation specific channel which I think might help coordinate more nationalism.
2) Create different conversation zones. As a player moves between systems different people having conversations would shift the atmosphere and game experience rather than a single experience dominated by a few more chatty people.
Ore; Let's not attack the mods here. They say that there is behind the scenes & quiet moderation, so we don't really get to know whether it's failing or succeeding, & it's not gonna endear any good feelings to assume the former
Xeha; "You cant fix humans with tech" well not with tech, but actually you CAN do a lot to "fix humans" just by setting the right example. People will follow the standards set by the devs & the community. If 100 is an 'on topic' channel, that's not hard for any noob to understand. New players won't come in and insist on spouting politics & spamming guild ads if they see from the very beginning that these things aren't tolerated
As mentioned in the O-OP, there are plenty of games that embrace a 'tighter', more on-topic moderation.... and the result is more interesting, relevant, and generally-mature chat. Monkey see monkey do. We're not trying to 'fix' human nature, but rather set up a few basic rules for communicating that make that communication a better & more positive thing
Fluffy; Both good points, especially (2)
.....
So what I'm reading in this thread is some general notion that 100 does have problems, and these problems make the game less appealing for noobies. But people still seem pretty split on whether to make 100 on-topic vs. eliminating it for System Chat. Since we can just talk those options in circles all day...
Incarnate can you please join and chime in about these two options, and whether either is feasible with regards to dev time & your overall vision for the game???
...or do we have to start flaming each other, posting memes, and abusing support tickets until you get fed up and come in with a Lock+Statement :P ? (Ore you're so ugly that when your mom drops you off at school she gets a fine for littering)
Xeha; "You cant fix humans with tech" well not with tech, but actually you CAN do a lot to "fix humans" just by setting the right example. People will follow the standards set by the devs & the community. If 100 is an 'on topic' channel, that's not hard for any noob to understand. New players won't come in and insist on spouting politics & spamming guild ads if they see from the very beginning that these things aren't tolerated
As mentioned in the O-OP, there are plenty of games that embrace a 'tighter', more on-topic moderation.... and the result is more interesting, relevant, and generally-mature chat. Monkey see monkey do. We're not trying to 'fix' human nature, but rather set up a few basic rules for communicating that make that communication a better & more positive thing
Fluffy; Both good points, especially (2)
.....
So what I'm reading in this thread is some general notion that 100 does have problems, and these problems make the game less appealing for noobies. But people still seem pretty split on whether to make 100 on-topic vs. eliminating it for System Chat. Since we can just talk those options in circles all day...
Incarnate can you please join and chime in about these two options, and whether either is feasible with regards to dev time & your overall vision for the game???
...or do we have to start flaming each other, posting memes, and abusing support tickets until you get fed up and come in with a Lock+Statement :P ? (Ore you're so ugly that when your mom drops you off at school she gets a fine for littering)
-1 seeing that real companies haven't solved chat being filled with jerks i don't know why you'd expect it here
I'm sure a bunch of you will come back with X has solved it! and with a small amount of research we'll find out they just made the generally populated channels not default :P
I'm sure a bunch of you will come back with X has solved it! and with a small amount of research we'll find out they just made the generally populated channels not default :P
Elimination of global chat won't work. It would only encourage trolls to physically seek out and stalk their victims across systems. You will also see a dramatic increase in usage of spybots, to compensate for the loss of information that 100 can give you on who's online.
There are already effective tools: ignore, votemute, and leave. ESPECIALLY /ignore. If you choose to not use them, that's on you and you alone.
I don't get the people who tell themselves "if I ignore him, I wouldn't be able to defend myself if he talks shit about me in front of everyone." Guess what, nobody gives a fuck about you or whatever that 11 year old kid is babbling on and on about.
There are already effective tools: ignore, votemute, and leave. ESPECIALLY /ignore. If you choose to not use them, that's on you and you alone.
I don't get the people who tell themselves "if I ignore him, I wouldn't be able to defend myself if he talks shit about me in front of everyone." Guess what, nobody gives a fuck about you or whatever that 11 year old kid is babbling on and on about.
"Ore; Let's not attack the mods here"
That wasn't an attack on the mods. I said moderation is failing. They can't be held responsible for VO chat 24/7.
Spence and Xeha, this isn't a solution to toxicity, it's mitigating it. Moderation will still be needed, support tickets will still be submitted. Toxicity will still exist.
That wasn't an attack on the mods. I said moderation is failing. They can't be held responsible for VO chat 24/7.
Spence and Xeha, this isn't a solution to toxicity, it's mitigating it. Moderation will still be needed, support tickets will still be submitted. Toxicity will still exist.
Spence;
1. it's not about chat being filled "with jerks". It's about inane, off topic stuff that detracts from gameplay
2. OTHER COMPANIES HAVE SOLVED IT, IN GENERAL CHAT. There are plenty of games where the general chat doesn't tolerate politics & spam. All you have to do is make the game policy "no inane, off topic stuff," give a few mods the power to enforce it, and very quickly the community learns (& can help self regulate).
Again, this is not conjecture. This is a thing that happens in many games big & small
3. You are right that in games with 10,000 active players, any global chat is largely unmanageable. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. But other games closer in size to VO do it easily, just by means of policy
Joylessjoker;
1. As has been stated, please don't just make declarations about what "will" or "won't" work, because none of us really know
2. This isn't just about a few individuals causing issues. It's about a general & unpleasant tone-shift of 100, as felt by the majority of people to chime in here so far
3. You're making a pretty huge leap of logic. It's really easy to troll on 100. It takes a lot more effort to "physically seek out and stalk victims".
3.5 More importantly, Incarnate has stated many times that this game SHOULD have some ruffled feathers, and specifically that "physically seek[ing] out and stalk[ing] victims" is the kind of gameplay he wants Soooo even if your flawed premise were correct, it would actually be an argument in favor of getting rid of global chat
4. "/ignore" as an effective solution has already been dismissed. Please read the full thread before jumping in with your conclusions
Ore;
Thanks for clarifying. My mistake, I misinterpreted it as personal and want to make sure this thread stays unlocked :)
And another good point. This isn't about toxicity, which is of course will always exist. It's about shaping our global chat (or lack thereof) in the way that best support relevant & interesting gameplay
(On another note, you'd think the devs would take immediate notice of an idea that you, Sieger, and I all strongly agree on)
1. it's not about chat being filled "with jerks". It's about inane, off topic stuff that detracts from gameplay
2. OTHER COMPANIES HAVE SOLVED IT, IN GENERAL CHAT. There are plenty of games where the general chat doesn't tolerate politics & spam. All you have to do is make the game policy "no inane, off topic stuff," give a few mods the power to enforce it, and very quickly the community learns (& can help self regulate).
Again, this is not conjecture. This is a thing that happens in many games big & small
3. You are right that in games with 10,000 active players, any global chat is largely unmanageable. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. But other games closer in size to VO do it easily, just by means of policy
Joylessjoker;
1. As has been stated, please don't just make declarations about what "will" or "won't" work, because none of us really know
2. This isn't just about a few individuals causing issues. It's about a general & unpleasant tone-shift of 100, as felt by the majority of people to chime in here so far
3. You're making a pretty huge leap of logic. It's really easy to troll on 100. It takes a lot more effort to "physically seek out and stalk victims".
3.5 More importantly, Incarnate has stated many times that this game SHOULD have some ruffled feathers, and specifically that "physically seek[ing] out and stalk[ing] victims" is the kind of gameplay he wants Soooo even if your flawed premise were correct, it would actually be an argument in favor of getting rid of global chat
4. "/ignore" as an effective solution has already been dismissed. Please read the full thread before jumping in with your conclusions
Ore;
Thanks for clarifying. My mistake, I misinterpreted it as personal and want to make sure this thread stays unlocked :)
And another good point. This isn't about toxicity, which is of course will always exist. It's about shaping our global chat (or lack thereof) in the way that best support relevant & interesting gameplay
(On another note, you'd think the devs would take immediate notice of an idea that you, Sieger, and I all strongly agree on)
Thanks for championing this Smittens. I was just gunna let it die in the General forum.
Suppose we got rid of the wait time on system messages, without changing 100 (For now), just to see how much people would use it. right now, there appears to be a 30-second limit between messages, which currently I feel prevents people from using it too much. sure it could prevent spam, but with 100 currently being completely open, I dont think that filter is doing much.
just a way to test the use of system chat in place of 100, perhaps?
just a way to test the use of system chat in place of 100, perhaps?