Just one correction: you need to sub multiple accounts to multi-box capships. Similar to Eve. So you pay more and get to double your hauling speed, as well as making your haulers more defensible by convoying your multiple capships. Building it is a one-time effort. The only running cost is the sub.

Each additional capship also makes building the next capship easier. The downside of multi-boxing is the lesser concentration. But you don't need much concentration to haul. Plugins like TurboHop make the job even easier. You don't concentration to mine either. For PvE, you can't farm SSS afk and hence need to give it attention (unless someone has made an external bot to undock, target, fire swarms and redock). With a bit of basic lua you can make a plugin to automatically target and activate turrets, even order other capships to attack, through a single master character. This is seen in autostack.

3 dents + golis would probably allow you to go through wormhole Unrats without a scratch. They'd just have too many targets to concentrate fire and deshield any one of them. Probably. I'm just guessing on this one.
When under attack by players, you can have 3 golis fly and attack with their large ports in case their in a capship, while you can get other clients in dents to atleast target and shoot your attacker with turrets. A very hard defense to crack.

It's simple to see why multi-boxing is such a powerful tool with capships. You get higher hauling speed, easier levi/Unrat dent killing, and a pretty secure convoy for yourself. The running cost is in real money. Its hard to find a simpler example of pay-to-win.

My original point wasnt a udv wast as a spealised combat ship, but that uit doesnt fight. Only needs escorts, of which we have many. Uit is a trade nation, itani and serco are based on combat/nationalism. So why can uit only get a combat ship also? I suggested moveing the udv to a tpg only ship, only at pos and makeing a new ship based on hauling for uit

Thank You Sid123! I didn't know you needed to sub multiple accounts to multibox capitals in VO. I really do see your valid concern. Capitals today are already proliferated literally seeing people with +3 tridents and more.

Yah the main drawback of multiboxing is the lack of attention between each character. I honestly don't know how the developers might consider this. What I can say is we will see what happens. I remember when people having a Goliath and trident was a real accomplishment. Things sure have changed since then. Frankly due to the size and scale of EVE with many players it's easier to form a fleet and kill a multi boxer. In VO it is a unique challenge were even getting 3-6 people together for a long period of time is a challenge. Nonetheless find the target and win. The odds are stacked against sub capitals currently vs multiboxers for sure. I don't really have anything else to say about it. I personally dislike multiboxers in EVE and in VO. Always been a solo character player I haven't ranked up a UIT/Serco character since I started VO.

Like seeing 1 guy controlling 3+ capitals is pretty disheartening. At least I have more tools to take someone like that down in EVE vs VO currently. I remain pretty optimistic things will be done right. New missions have pulled me back. I am 100% sure new ships/gear will pull me and many others back. Level headed debate and discussion is hard to find on forums. But it's the internet so not that high of expectations.

Eg. It takes atleast 3 non-capship pilots to take down a levi. With a goli, it becomes possible to solo but not very easy.

Just a note: If you time your stronghold queen kills just right, the mission will run long enough that the npcs will deshield the levi for you.

So you pay more and get to double your hauling speed, as well as making your haulers more defensible by convoying your multiple capships.

Running multiple capital ships is clumsy at best. Pilots who do that risk losing 90% their capital ship force because they have no way to actually pilot all their ships at once. You can't tell your capital ship to attack a non capital ship.

3 dents + golis would probably allow you to go through wormhole Unrats without a scratch. They'd just have too many targets to concentrate fire and deshield any one of them. Probably.

This is correct, which is why pilots many times will take an escort mission, that goes ahead of them. The escort ship kill the unrats for the player.

. You get higher hauling speed, easier levi/Unrat dent killing, and a pretty secure convoy for yourself.
I disagree.

So why can uit only get a combat ship also?

The UDV is a fantastic combat ship . And can haul 6cu and has loads of wonderful sensors.

I suggested moveing the udv to a tpg only ship, only at pos and makeing a new ship based on hauling for uit

So everyone gets access to the UDV, and UIT end up with a weak hauling ship that will die super easy? That sounds very unbalanced.

Like seeing 1 guy controlling 3+ capitals is pretty disheartening.

Is it really? That sounds like an opportunity to kill an easy target.

-"Running multiple capital ships is clumsy at best."
You're talking about really slow ships here. You can run 2 tabs on a single laptop and alt-tab your way through flying without a problem. I have done it myself. Get 3 PCs on a curved table with a rotating chair, and you can keep an eye on all three characters at once. You don't need much of a reaction time or concentration to fly such a slow ship anyway. VO has no dirth of multi-boxers. It gets clunky when you try to fight in it. For hauling, it's perfect.
As for defensibility, it is very easy to tell your other clients to target a particular ship and toggle their turrets on using lua. Something similar is seen in the autostack plugin, which allows you to coordinate multi-box av stacks with an accuracy that is astounding.

. You get higher hauling speed, easier levi/Unrat dent killing, and a pretty secure convoy for yourself.
I disagree.

Could you explain the reason for this disagreement?

You're talking about really slow ships here. You can run 2 tabs on a single laptop and alt-tab your way through flying without a problem.

If it was that easy, everyone would be doing it. It's not. The ship being slow is why you lose in this scenario.

I agree with WAF Even Sid123 said multiboxing's drawback is the lack of coordination between all ships. Even the best pilots here do struggle with effectively piloting multiple ships. But piloting multiple capitals does make PVE easier.

I do think seeing 1 guy control 3+ capitals is pretty disheartning. Capitals are quite strong even against skilled fighters. Railguns can oneshot many ships. Capitals are quite hard to pin down and apply damage. It does require a lot of coordination and assets to do it. So seeing a fleet of 3? Can be pretty daunting of a task to take down.

I do believe subcapitals will get more tools beyond what we have to attack capitals. And capitals will have new ways to defend against and so on and so forth.

We have already hashed out the role of the UDV in multiple threads. Incarnate has responded and we know the role of the UDV. So the UIT are a trading nation. The UIT don't have nearly the R&D resources compared to the Itani/Serco. The UDV is not designed with pure combat in mind like the X1 and SCP. The UDV is a convoy escort and a deep space scout for Ion Storms. Spin the RP however you want. The UDV's role is not what the X1 and SCP was designed for. I don't even get into the unique benefits only UIT members get over the other nations.

You get higher hauling speed, easier levi/Unrat dent killing, and a pretty secure convoy for yourself.

Again thing here is capship building is supposed to take months of time & the grind does keep people around most of the time. After building capships there isn't much to do in game, so the players who has them help new players in their building, they kill leviathans to help new players in their builds, they kill unrats for new players who need to get things done in greyspace.

And you keep mentioning that new players can't afford multiple subs, can't play the game like everyone else did for years & then you say it's not fair because vets who spent both money & their time is unbeatable. None of this is true i have seen vets losing capships from time to time.

How is this suggestion good for the game ? It devalue long-term players time, money, it makes conquerable station access pointless, kills player 2 player trading, removes the need to work with others or co-operate, removes the risk of getting hunted by pirates while building capship etc etc.

I agree with what xXWiseWolfXx is saying on the OP. -1.
The discussion here went off the OP about 10 posts ago. We're just waiting for Whistler to kick us to General.

WAF I cannot say what you or others may or may not find difficult. In personal experience, hauling multi-box has been a convenience, a big one. I fly 2 XCs that way. They are faster and less defensible, thus requiring more attention. I can still do it without much hassle. This is of course only personal experience. Everyone has their own experience with coordinating multiple clients. I can't make a universally applicable statement on whether it is easy or not.

xXWiseWolfXx capships are a grind, but they're a one-time grind that gets easier with every capship you build. A fleet of 3 dents + golis is by no means easy to kill. Should anyone, after any amount of grind, be allowed to relax in their safety? If capships are the one and only end-game, after which you can afford to just roam around and do nothing, the game is just too short. The fact that capships are not "THE END" is what keeps players playing even after their capships are built.
Your premise that once someone has built their capships, they will use them to help new players or build capships for them, is not universally applicable. We all know players who would not help newbs, and would in fact even grief them to the point of quitting the game. Maybe it's a sadistic pleasure, maybe they want to retain the feel a small community game provides. Maybe their just too good, and scorn anyone bothered with questions like "how to dock?" or "How should I level up my license?". Not everyone is interested in helping.

Vets lose their capships from time to time. Maybe frequently. That was never the point I was making. They have spent years building up their piles of resources and capships. And most of it is well-deserved, not derived from exploits. Some of it might be derived from exploits, but we're not here to throw dirt. What's there is there. My only point is that adding more capships to the game means that the stockpiled resources suddenly become a lot more advantageous. It's past work that's paying off now. And I frankly don't see why someone's past grind work should take precedence over current skill and dedication.

Should anyone, after any amount of grind, be allowed to relax in their safety

How are you so sure they're safe and nobody is ever shooting them ? It could be possible that they might be paying pirates or made friendly relations with other players over time ?

And most of it is well-deserved, not derived from exploits

How are you so sure that all old players have exploited or achieved things through them ? How can you tell that developers did or didn't take action against them ? Incarnate has been fixing bugs & exploits from years, he does take action against exploiters as well - he make some things public and some don't.

My only point is that adding more capships to the game means that the stockpiled resources suddenly become a lot more advantageous. It's past work that's paying off now.

Again how are you so sure that all the old players somehow is going to build new capships overnight ? Iirc incarnate said somewhere it will require both old and new parts. Why do you think unknown system and new drops like sammic or RHA was added ? He is trying to create a balance in game & he's doing a really great job.

All this conversation is prime example of why new players should join a active and helping guild so the leaders can tell them how things work in game. So they don't start assuming things, accusing vets without proof or facts out of their paranoia.

How are you so sure they're safe and nobody is ever shooting them ?
I never said that. All I'm saying is they're much better defended and less vulnerable than a solo capship pilot. No one is completely safe, but some people are safer than others.

How are you so sure that all old players have exploited or achieved things through them ?
If you take some time to understand what I have actually written, I am saying that most of it is not from exploits. Some of it would be. Exploits existed before and exist even now, and none of us are completely innocent of using exploits. I am not leveling any accusations on vets. The systems were different back then. Much of what would now be called an exploit was acceptable back then, such as farming SSS using lmines, or in-built such as higher samo drops. I have no vendetta against vets. Don't make it sound like I do.

Again how are you so sure that all the old players somehow is going to build new capships overnight ? Iirc incarnate said somewhere it will require both old and new parts.

I am not assuming they would build it overnight. But, whatever the parts may be, they are going to overlap with old parts. It wil require "both old and new parts". Here, someone with a stockpile of any parts is going to have an advantage to some degree. Such an advantage is natural. My only concern is that it should not become an unbridgeable or ever-widening gap. death456 said "equality of opportunity, not equallity of results" (or something along those lines). That is what I want as well. If two players start from scratch and have to build up their capship, one a vet and one a newb, both playing the same amount of time and with equal dedication, the vet should not have any advantage beyond their better skills. I think that's fair. You might differ.

All this conversation is prime example of why new players should join a active and helping guild so the leaders can tell them how things work in game. So they don't start assuming things, accusing vets without proof or facts out of their paranoia

I am not a vet. I can't deny that. But I am not a complete newb either. I have been a member of an active and helping guild, recieved guidance from them and helped them with their capship builds, while still not having my own. I am now a member of a different but similarly active and helpful guild. If your definition of "leaders can tell them how things work in the game" means teaching them that they must always serve and never look to become greater than the vets or their own leaders, then I am sorry but I can't agree with that definition. I would also like it if you stated which unfounded assumptions I have made over here, so I may correct your interpretation of my words or my own interpretation of other people's words as well as my experiences, as the case might be.

I am not "accusing" vets of anything. If you view the assertion that "owning multiple capships gives you an advantage" as an accusation, then perhaps I am. But then, I am backing it with facts. I will not deny that I have grown suspicious of players in general and vets in particular after some recent incidents, but I have tried to keep said suspicion out of my posts as far as possible, instead stating universally accepted facts or personal experience. If you think of me as a paranoid vet-hater, I can only hope that this image does not persist after explanation. If it does, I request you to keep said image of me out of your responses, as I have attempted to do with mine.

"The discussion here went off the OP about 10 posts ago. We're just waiting for Whistler to kick us to General"

Agreed.

Please see the rules for suggestions, everyone, specifically Rule #3. Kindly limit your comments to the suggestion at hand and refrain from making comments about the people having the discussion.