Forums » Suggestions
Make turret reloads dependent upon weapon and ship type
Currently, entering a turret that requires ammo will reset it to full instantly. This allows ships to have infinite ammo on weapons which shouldn't really be unlimited. However, I don't actually think this should be removed, because a turret which requires ammo is of very limited utility - especially on a capital ship, where reloading at a station would require an inordinate amount of time. These weapons should still have some sort of additional ability compared to their forward firing counterparts.
Thus, I suggest that each turreted weapon with an ammo limit (gemini, firefracker, capital class swarm) should have a timer, that upon running out of ammo (or, if it were added, a button in the turret menu or a full-on bind) would count down and then reset the ammo. Very preliminary values:
Gemini: 90 seconds
Firecracker: 30 seconds
Capital Class Swarm: 6 minutes*
Additionally, the time to reload would be dependent upon which type of ship you're flying. If you're flying a small ship, the timer is at its default. If you're flying a capital ship, it is reduced by a factor of five. Thus, on a capital ship, the gemini would reload in 18 seconds, the firecracker in 6, and the capswarm in 72 seconds.
These numbers would allow these weapons to have long-term utility in a fight without being essentially unlimited on a small ship or completely worthless on a capship.
*The reason I give a possible larger value for the capswarm is the possibility of smaller ships having the ability to mount capital class turrets. This is a good built-in limiter in that case, allowing the capswarm to not be ridiculous while still being useful on, say, a behemoth.
Thus, I suggest that each turreted weapon with an ammo limit (gemini, firefracker, capital class swarm) should have a timer, that upon running out of ammo (or, if it were added, a button in the turret menu or a full-on bind) would count down and then reset the ammo. Very preliminary values:
Gemini: 90 seconds
Firecracker: 30 seconds
Capital Class Swarm: 6 minutes*
Additionally, the time to reload would be dependent upon which type of ship you're flying. If you're flying a small ship, the timer is at its default. If you're flying a capital ship, it is reduced by a factor of five. Thus, on a capital ship, the gemini would reload in 18 seconds, the firecracker in 6, and the capswarm in 72 seconds.
These numbers would allow these weapons to have long-term utility in a fight without being essentially unlimited on a small ship or completely worthless on a capship.
*The reason I give a possible larger value for the capswarm is the possibility of smaller ships having the ability to mount capital class turrets. This is a good built-in limiter in that case, allowing the capswarm to not be ridiculous while still being useful on, say, a behemoth.
Whoops, forgot caprails. Due to their ammo, their reload time should be very long:
20 minutes default, 4 minutes on a capship
20 minutes default, 4 minutes on a capship
Well made suggestion. I think we might see something like this down the line for turrets that require ammo, at least on capital ships.
Looking forward to what people counter this suggestion with. Some might say this makes some of these turrets not worth the trouble.
I do like the start of having finite ammo on ships. Adds a logistics challenge if you are in deep space for an extended time. While this may not be a problem for an atlas or behemoth. It really proposes some unique challenges for capital owners. Thing's like onslaught of hive bots/extended back to back fights/ the Deneb war!
I like the potential this has when built around more gameplay.
Looking forward to what people counter this suggestion with. Some might say this makes some of these turrets not worth the trouble.
I do like the start of having finite ammo on ships. Adds a logistics challenge if you are in deep space for an extended time. While this may not be a problem for an atlas or behemoth. It really proposes some unique challenges for capital owners. Thing's like onslaught of hive bots/extended back to back fights/ the Deneb war!
I like the potential this has when built around more gameplay.
i think it would be better to have infinate ammo but work similar to how a ammo stowage works, 2 segments, 1st segment is for ammo to shoot and the other segment is to reload the first segment (this 2nd segment having infinate storage). There should be a delay between the reloading process, this could also open up different possibilities of say compartment damage for capital ships, deshield and hit the storages then that hinders the ability to reload.
some of the benefits of this is that it can be expanded upon and grow arms n legs or not and remain simple (scaleable to ones desire), as well as allowing for easy tweaking, capswarms being spammed? up the reload timer from segment 2 to segment 1, or adjust the capacity of ammo of segment 1.
some of the benefits of this is that it can be expanded upon and grow arms n legs or not and remain simple (scaleable to ones desire), as well as allowing for easy tweaking, capswarms being spammed? up the reload timer from segment 2 to segment 1, or adjust the capacity of ammo of segment 1.
> However, I don't actually think this should be removed, because a turret which requires ammo is of very limited utility
I do not disagree, but I shall point out that the same argument is equally valid for small/large slot launchers. And that's my main problem with the current situation - you get to unlimited free reloads for turrets during battle whereas for other launchers docking is the only option and you have to pay for the reloads.
I don't care whichever way this goes since it's ultimately a balancing decision but I'd prefer it to be consistent.
I do not disagree, but I shall point out that the same argument is equally valid for small/large slot launchers. And that's my main problem with the current situation - you get to unlimited free reloads for turrets during battle whereas for other launchers docking is the only option and you have to pay for the reloads.
I don't care whichever way this goes since it's ultimately a balancing decision but I'd prefer it to be consistent.
The argument there (for me) is that turrets, while far from useless, are much less effective than, say, a Prometheus with flares. Those reloading during a fight could very easily change the tide of it. If there were a timer for forward mounted weapons, it would have to be very long, 30 minutes or more. Possibly even dependent upon staying still for some duration of time. Otherwise, you risk some real shenanigans. Currently I don’t see the same issue for any turreted weapons, capships aside.
I don't disagree with that, either, but I'd still prefer consistency first. The question of effectiveness of turret mounted launchers vs other launchers is a separate question. Personally I'd think that neither should be able to be reloaded during battle, but again, I'm not that bothered about the actual details.
1)
Capital class turrets have grid requirements that make mounting on non-capital vessels impossible. Or, if there has been someway to get around it, it should be fixed, as it was my understanding that was the entire point of the high grid values on capital-class turrets.
2)
It appears you are mischaracterizing the problem of "turrets shouldn't be able to spam ammo-based projectiles without delay" as "turrets shouldn't have unlimited ammo", and specifically in the cases of gems, firecrackers, and rails. Capswarms have a built in firing delay already.
3)
Worrying about the real-world logistics of game mechanics is futile and pointless (i.e. how "unrealistically" fast a reload happens). The question should not be about how (or how fast) ammo-based weapons are reloaded, but rather how effective they should be as weapons in the game. If they are too OP as currently implemented, then suggest a fix for that reason, or perhaps give support to a suggestion that has done so already.
4)
I like the idea of capital ships having faster reloads of non-capital class turrets, generally speaking, compared to non capital class ships. Seems like a good bonus, given the investment level of the platform. But I think perhaps a factor of 5 is on the "too fast" end of things. But it also seemingly goes against the original design of the addon system, which is that the limitations of the addons are already set in their existing specs (grid, ammo, energy, delay, etc). Incarnate has always seemed to be against violating this original principal by adding anything that might boost an addon beyond it's listed specs, IIRC. Not that I agree with that hard stance, just pointing it out.
Capital class turrets have grid requirements that make mounting on non-capital vessels impossible. Or, if there has been someway to get around it, it should be fixed, as it was my understanding that was the entire point of the high grid values on capital-class turrets.
2)
It appears you are mischaracterizing the problem of "turrets shouldn't be able to spam ammo-based projectiles without delay" as "turrets shouldn't have unlimited ammo", and specifically in the cases of gems, firecrackers, and rails. Capswarms have a built in firing delay already.
3)
Worrying about the real-world logistics of game mechanics is futile and pointless (i.e. how "unrealistically" fast a reload happens). The question should not be about how (or how fast) ammo-based weapons are reloaded, but rather how effective they should be as weapons in the game. If they are too OP as currently implemented, then suggest a fix for that reason, or perhaps give support to a suggestion that has done so already.
4)
I like the idea of capital ships having faster reloads of non-capital class turrets, generally speaking, compared to non capital class ships. Seems like a good bonus, given the investment level of the platform. But I think perhaps a factor of 5 is on the "too fast" end of things. But it also seemingly goes against the original design of the addon system, which is that the limitations of the addons are already set in their existing specs (grid, ammo, energy, delay, etc). Incarnate has always seemed to be against violating this original principal by adding anything that might boost an addon beyond it's listed specs, IIRC. Not that I agree with that hard stance, just pointing it out.
Replying to Greenwall:
1) I specifically only brought up mounting a capital class weapon on a small ship as a possibility of an unreleased ship, module, or power cell that would allow such a thing. It’s just a way of seeing how this suggested system could be used in additional ways.
2) I don’t have a huge problem with turrets firing essentially limitlessly - from capital ships. They’re slow and mounting a much smaller weapon with a much smaller damage potential can be incentivized by having it be made more useful than when mounted on a small vessel. The primary issue to me is a small ship that can fire infinitely while being near-uncatchable, vastly upping its damage potential with no downsides whatsoever. A ship-dependent reload time is a way to stop this problem without gutting the weapon when mounted on a capship.
3) Realism is not a factor to me (aside from giving an already-working mechanic an in-universe justification). As I’ve outlined the idea is to balance these weapons differently on capital ships and on small ships. Realism is just a way of explaining why the big ship shoot faster. And truthfully: I don’t like that other suggestion. I don’t like it precisely because it would make weapons which have some utility on big ships lose said utility.
4) 5 is a lot, I agree. I only suggest it - again - because of the vast difference in investment, as you say.
Additionally: if you were to make a “capital” version of these weapons, they would have a large grid requirement that would reduce their adaptability, even on the capships they’re intended for. You could also add “large port turrets” which will only fit on capships, but that’s another suggestion.
1) I specifically only brought up mounting a capital class weapon on a small ship as a possibility of an unreleased ship, module, or power cell that would allow such a thing. It’s just a way of seeing how this suggested system could be used in additional ways.
2) I don’t have a huge problem with turrets firing essentially limitlessly - from capital ships. They’re slow and mounting a much smaller weapon with a much smaller damage potential can be incentivized by having it be made more useful than when mounted on a small vessel. The primary issue to me is a small ship that can fire infinitely while being near-uncatchable, vastly upping its damage potential with no downsides whatsoever. A ship-dependent reload time is a way to stop this problem without gutting the weapon when mounted on a capship.
3) Realism is not a factor to me (aside from giving an already-working mechanic an in-universe justification). As I’ve outlined the idea is to balance these weapons differently on capital ships and on small ships. Realism is just a way of explaining why the big ship shoot faster. And truthfully: I don’t like that other suggestion. I don’t like it precisely because it would make weapons which have some utility on big ships lose said utility.
4) 5 is a lot, I agree. I only suggest it - again - because of the vast difference in investment, as you say.
Additionally: if you were to make a “capital” version of these weapons, they would have a large grid requirement that would reduce their adaptability, even on the capships they’re intended for. You could also add “large port turrets” which will only fit on capships, but that’s another suggestion.