Forums » Suggestions

Superbots Needed for More Combat Experience

12»
Feb 06, 2005 DekuDekuplex link
The current Advanced Combat Practice isn't very useful for gaining Combat experience after about Level 6. The experience awarded relative to that needed for each new level is too small.

Advanced Combat Practice only offers 300 Combat experience points for every four robots on the target list destroyed (or 75 per robot, on average). Given that the difference between levels 6 and 7 is about 23,000, this translates into the following:

23,000 points needed / 75 per robot = 306.6667 robots necessary

or roughly 307 (actually, 308 for the bonus to be awarded) robots that need to be killed to rise only one level.

What actually happens is that because almost every robot type except for TyCorp Assault either takes too much time to destroy per robot, or is not on the target list, most players wind up needing to kill 308 or more TyCorp Assault ships to advance just one level.

This lack of variety for time-efficient levelling turns Combat level advancement into a serious chore. The only alternative is to attack players of higher Combat levels than oneself, but this is extremely risky, and some players (such as myself) would like to advance in Combat levels without resorting to competitive PvP (Player vs. Player) combat, preferring either single-player or more cooperative group involvement, instead.

As a suggestion, would it be possible for the developers to come up with some superbots awarding higher Combat experience for players at or higher than Combat Level 6?

For example, perhaps a new Capital robot class could be created, armed with dual Neutron Blaster MkIII's, dual Chaos Swarm Missile Launchers, and dual Lightning Mine Launchers, with 100,000 armor, a mass of 9800, a thrust of 350 N, a spin torque of 9.0 Nm, a turbo max speed of 200 m/s, and turbo drain of 50/sec, and an Ultra Charge Battery, so that it would handle just like a Wraith MkIII, but be armed to the teeth. Further, suppose that these superbots always worked in pairs, with coordinated AI, so that they always tried to sandwich any would-be attacker.

Further, suppose progressively more advanced such superbots were available, each twice as powerful as the previous level, but awarding four times as much experience, until they provided enough experience to reach, say, Combat Level 25 readily.

The superbots could hang out in random pockets of gray space, similarly to the way Queen Hives currently behave. Further, they could be defended by a fleet of lesser robots in the same way, and spawn and move similarly as well, within the same time limits. They could be limited to one sector per system, under the assumption that they were originally spawned by Queen Hives, which were only capable of creating one per system using the available resources.

Further, there could be a new Elite Combat Practice mission, available as both a single-player and group mission, awarding 5,000 Combat experience points per Capital robot destroyed, with an additional 5,000 points for the destroying the accompanying support robot fleet, and an additional 10,000 points awarded after four such Capital robots were destroyed, set also to scale in difficulty and Combat points awarded for each new Combat level. Higher levels would require increasingly coordinated group player involvement in devising strategies for effective attack.

In addition, Elite Combat Practice medals could be awarded, as follows:

* Bronze Elite Combat Practice Medal + Positron Blaster MkII (new weapon) for 25 Capital Robot Kills
* Silver Elite Combat Practice Medal + Mega Positron Blaster MkII (new weapon) for 100 Capital Robot Kills
* Gold Elite Combat Practice Medal + Lightning Mine Launcher MkII (new weapon) for 250 Capital Robot Kills
* Platinum Elite Combat Practice Medal + Chaos Swarm Missile Launcher MkII (new weapon) for 500 Capital Robot Kills

Further, to encourage larger groups, the Capital robots would always work just in pairs per sector, even for larger groups of players (although the smaller robots could, perhaps, increase in number to adjust); as a tradeoff, however, the total Combat experience would be split among the participants according to current Combat Level.

The availability of such superbot-led fleets would remove the current tedium of shooting 308 TyCorp Assault ships to rise just one level. Further, they could scale with higher Combat levels.

IMHO, the challenge of higher Combat levels should not be just more, more, and more more more TyCorp Assault ships to hunt. There should be far greater, far more sinister prey out there with far higher rewards, so that Combat levelling becomes a seriously challenging, but potentially time-efficient, cooperative group-oriented strategic mission of increasing difficulty.

-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
Feb 06, 2005 Big Mike85 link
"The glory of being superman is that you can fly and leap tall buildings and stuff like that. The only problem is that its always no contest in arm wrestling."

Cant exactly remeber where that came from. I read it on some message board once about smallville I think. Anyway this in a way represents a point I think should be made. Yay, you hit level 6. Now everything seems weak. Thats the way its supposed to be. Personally I havent played this game enough to get to level 6 but I think it would be the same as any other game when you get to high levels. Try pissing of some faction then go try storming one of their stations. Kill the guards. I dont know. But i dont think superbots should be in the game. especially not in any kind of mass numbers. Maybe some kind of bosses or in this game maybe military leaders with a fully loaded entourage or something.
Feb 06, 2005 DekuDekuplex link
Sorry, but I disagree.

For example, in "Final Fantasy XI Online," there are many boss-level monsters that require groups of Level 75+ or so players to kill. Many of them come in groups, necessitating strategic interplay among the advanced players. No matter how advanced your level, there is always some enemy boss-level monster that you can't kill alone.

Otherwise, what happens to the challenge? Initiating self-destructive behavior just to create problems for challenge creates more problems than it solves. There needs to be a more elegant alternative.

One of the best solutions in this regard was the auto-levelling of the monsters in the (admittedly non-multi-player) RPG "Final Fantasy VIII." In that RPG, the monsters you fought automatically levelled with you and acquired additional skills, so that the higher your level, the more difficult the battles became. It was actually *easier* to defeat certain dragons at a low level than at a higher level, because at higher player levels, the dragons correspondingly acquired new abilities and became so challenging that defeating them required also coming up with creative strategies to overcome their new powers.

If the experience ceases to be challenging in a constructive way beyond a certain level, then it also ceases to be interesting, period. There should always be a *constructive* challenge.

In fact, I think that the battles to gain correspondingly more experience should become *more* challenging the higher your level, because at higher levels, you are more battle-experienced, too. However, they should also be more varied, and battles against weaker robots than the player should become correspondingly easier.

[Edit]
However, as a reward for level advancement, routine missions/tasks should gradually become easier. Otherwise, there is little reward for advancing.

Nevertheless, the main missions to be taken specifically for additional level advancement should gradually become more challenging (up to a certain level, at least), and more varied in the types of weapons used, as the awards become correspondingly greater.

It would also help if they became more spectacular; e.g., requiring timed surprise attacks with shock beams from behind asteroids to paralyze the superbots for, say, ten seconds first, followed by immediate assault by nuclear mine launchers equipped with long-range laser detonators.
[/Edit]

-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
Feb 06, 2005 Big Mike85 link

I must apologize. There is a certain aspect in your original post that I agree with yet failed to mention. I do think that there should be tougher missions. Your whole elite combat mission sounded like a great idea actually. I think the offer of the medals was a good idea too. It would provide incentive other than loot or credits. I was merely tryin to say that there shouldnt be bots or anything of the power you are talking of just wandering around in the universe. I wouldnt mind them incorporating stupid hard level bosses and bots and any accompanying fighters they may have but I think that they should be spawned via mission only. And if you are wanting really uber challenges then perhaps those would be spawned only via a group mission.
Feb 06, 2005 Solra Bizna link
FTR: It's not four TyCorps to get +300 when you reach a high enough level. I'm combat 9 and I have to kill SEVEN TyCorps per group. :S
-:sigma.SB
Feb 06, 2005 DekuDekuplex link
Oh, my gosh. That's even worse. Not a terribly bright future. Good thing I posted my suggestion while still at Combat Level 6.

Simply increasing the numbers doesn't make the challenge any more interesting.... In fact, it just makes it increasingly tedious....

<shivers>

-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
Feb 06, 2005 Solra Bizna link
I actually really like the basic tone of this idea, some more exciting way to gain combat experience would be nice. But, one must not make it too easy, otherwise getting combat level 14 is no longer "really cool," just unoriginal.
-:sigma.SB
Feb 06, 2005 Spellcast link
My solution wouldnt be to make superbots, it would be to make gaurdians offer significantly higher XP and change the missions around.

level 1-3 Beginner - collectors - kill 5 for bonus (increasing bonus)
Level 2+ Medium - Assults up to prosus, apu-5(the weakest) gaurdians - Kill 4 for bonus
Level 6+ Advanced - Gaurdians and dentek assults - kill 5 for bonus

the weakes gaurdian would offer the same Xp as the valent assult, the dentek assult would offer about the same Xp as a fennus -18 assult, more dangerous gaurdians would offer higher bonuses than any assult bot. the arklan gaurdian would offer a HUGE bonus(+2500 per list of all arklans anyone), because killing them takes forever. :)

for every 5 combat levels higher than the point where the mission becomes availible you are, it adds 2 bots to the list. thus a level 7 combat player doing the medium has to kill 6 bots, not 4, he/she can then switch to advanced and only have to kill 5 bots, allbeit of a harder type.

Make group combat missions viable by giving them 10% more reward as the single person combat, and set the number of bots as follows.

# of bots = [single] + (1/2[single] X [players in group])
where [single] is the base number of bots the most experienced player in the group has to kill if he does the mission without a group.

thus if a person with level 6 combat is the highest in the group, doing a medium combat, the number of bots would be

# of bots = 4 + ({1/2 x [4]} X [players in group])
or
# of bots = 4 + (2 X [players in group])

thus a group of 2 gets 10% more reward than if they were doing the mission individually, but has to kill twice the bots the most experienced player would need to kill.
Using our example, the formula looks like,
# of Bots = 4+(2x2)
or
# of bots = 4 + 4

so 8 bots, but you get 10% more reward, making it still a benefit for 2 people.

doing a group mission individually makes no sense, because you have to kill half again as many bots for only 10% more reward, +
Using our example, the formula looks like,
# of Bots = 4+(2x1)
or
# of bots = 4 + 2
or 6 bots, for only 10% more reward. not worth it

groups of 3 or more similar level players have a significant advantage in time/reward for botting, adding a multiplayer aspect to botting. (it really is more fun in a group)
Using our example for a 3 person group, the formula looks like,
# of Bots = 4+(2x3)
or
# of bots = 4 + 6
or 10 bots, each person now only has to kill 3.3 bots instead of 4, and the reward is still 10% higher.

a group of 8 would be
# of Bots = 4+(2x8)
or
# of bots = 4 + 16
or 20 bots, 20 bots divided by 8 players is only a 2.5 bots per player, for 10% more Xp than doing it alone. not too shabby. :)
Feb 06, 2005 epadafunk link
wont the cap ship solve some of these problems?
Feb 06, 2005 UncleDave link
It wouldnt be so bad...

...if they actually gave bonuses for killing denteks and a3s earlier. I'm combat 8 and can't do them... it sucks, because I know i could level faster off them.

Is the mission being kept artificially slow?
Feb 06, 2005 Beolach link
I'd like Hive Queens to always count as a bonus bot for Advanced Combat, so if you kill a Queen while on the Adv. Combat mission you'd get like +500 combat XP.
Feb 06, 2005 DekuDekuplex link
Re: Solra Bizna:

> I actually really like the basic tone of this idea, some more exciting way to gain
> combat experience would be nice. But, one must not make it too easy,
> otherwise getting combat level 14 is no longer "really cool," just unoriginal.
> -:sigma.SB

I agree that it shouldn't be too easy, too, but it shouldn't be too time-consuming, either.

One possible solution is to set up the make more advanced Combat Practice missions so that they require increasingly sophisticated elements of group strategy, but not too many robot kills.

For example, (to borrow an idea from "Final Fantasy XI Online," again) create a class of bots that resemble huge female black widow spiders. Give each of them, say, 100,000 HP for if the highest-level player in the attack group is Combat Level 6 (plus an additional 25,000 HP for each higher level of the highest-level player in the group). However, make these mother spider-bots only so maneuverable as the regular Ragnarok, with, say three Neutron Blaster MkII's and two Plasma Devastator MkII's.

However, when one mother spider-bot is destroyed, make it immediately spawn three baby spider-bots, each with 50,000 HP (plus an additional 12,500 HP for each higher level of the highest-level player in the group), but as maneuverable as a Wraith MkIII, and armed each with one Neutron Blaster MkIII and two Chaos Swarm Missile Launchers.

Repeatedly spawn three more baby spider-bots every sixty seconds, three times totally.

Set up the mission so that once a player is killed, he/she can no longer damage any of the spider-bots or heal fellow group members.

While killing the queen spider would not be very hard, finishing off all nine babies in three minutes would be almost impossible, except for a highly coordinated group.

If the players all get killed, then nobody gets a bonus--they only get Light/Heavy Weapons experience.

However, if at least one player survives after successfully killing all the spider-bots, then all players in that group earn Combat experience points proportionally to their level. For example, Combat Level 6 players could earn 10,000 Combat experience points (plus/minus an additional 2,500 points for each higher/lower Combat level of each player in the group).

Further, for variety, give all the spider-bots some kind of additional advantage (greater maneuverability, more weapons, more powerful weapons, more armor, a better battery, etc.) for each higher level past Combat Level 6 of this highest-level player in the attack group.

That way, players of higher Combat levels would face increasingly difficult strategic challenges requiring deeper thought and better group coordination among players, but not necessarily more time per level, provided the coordination worked perfectly.

Theoretically, a genius of strategy with many loyal friends with perfect coordination should take no more time in actual combat time to rise from Combat Level 15 to 16 as from 6 to 7, although it may take considerably better strategy, better use of unusual ships/weaponry/batteries, and, above all, much better cooperative group coordination. The higher the Combat level, the most specialized the role of each member in the group would need to be, and the more necessarily accurate and precise the group coordination. A single errant group member should easily be able to cause the entire group to fail, especially at higher Combat levels.

-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
Feb 06, 2005 DekuDekuplex link
Re: Beolach

> I'd like Hive Queens to always count as a bonus bot for Advanced Combat, so if
> you kill a Queen while on the Adv. Combat mission you'd get like +500 combat
> XP.

Yes, I was also thinking of something similar. However, the Queen Hives should also adapter to the Combat level of the highest enemy player in the sector (again, with greater maneuverability, more weapons, more powerful weapons, more armor, a better battery, etc., for higher levels), and give proportional Combat experience as well. Any fixed number of Combat experience points will become almost meaningless beyond some Combat level.

-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
Feb 07, 2005 Solra Bizna link
<OT>
That thing about the giant spiders reminded me of an episode of Naruto...
</OT>
Hopefully, if such a way to increase combat xp with high skill and low time were implemented, it would have high faction rewards too.
-:sigma.SB
Feb 08, 2005 UncleDave link
What about huge, modular, lylat wars/warning forever style bosses? Which you can shoot bits off and knock off weaponry, revealing new bits and weaponry, till you get to the core, which you can then blow the living crap outta.
Feb 08, 2005 Fnugget link
Actually, I kill prosus for botting. I haven't timed myself on how fast I do it, but it takes me longer to get bored of them. It seems to me it is fast enough to out do tycorps.
Combat 10 -> 8 Bots.

But really, there is no point in these higher bots until theres a reason to get those higher levels. Any level beyond 8 gets you very little in improved equipment to deal with said bots. Once you reach combat 8, the effort needed for 9 and 10 become much greater, but there is little need for it.
Feb 08, 2005 johnhawl218 link
Hopefully with the introduction of Cap ships and possibly a frigate class ship, combat 9+ and light/heavy weapons 10+ will need to be reached before you can use any of it.
Feb 08, 2005 LeadFist link
briefly... "DekuDekuplex," Prosus Assaults provide roughly +500 combat xp every four bots destroyed. Plus they are sometimes treated as the "bonus bot" in the Advanced Combat mission, providing an additional +450 combat point bonus. That's a significant increase over Tycorp botting sessions. Now to read your idea regarding cap ship botting....

#####################
Edit/Update: "Solra Bizna," nope, I'm only combat level 6.

After reading DekuDekuplex's initial post and concept, I'm on board with the idea. Bring on the super nasty bots... and the super XP bonus rewards for the kill.
Feb 08, 2005 Solra Bizna link
LeadFist: You're obviously not combat level 7 or higher.
-:sigma.SB
Feb 09, 2005 Syberfly link
He has the 500xp right, at Cl 11 you need to kill 8 Prosus Assaults bots for this to happen, and every time you kill one their worth 350xp per-kill.

No I don't think that SuperBots need to be added, to me it would make my and others work at combat lving a joke. I have said it before, people these days want it now and don't want to work for it, give me, give me, now, now. I say work for it, if they make it to easy to lv people will get bored and leave.

What you might think about is increasing the amout of xp the currant bots give. I have to date killed 9222 bots my lvs are
10/14/13/x/x and all 3 are 2k to4 k from lving lots of bots lol.

Superbots maybe down the road after some growth in the game.

Syberfly out.

I live for the One, I die for the One.