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Pizzasgood posted this in another thread, and I thought it warranted further discussion on its own:
"The only people who cannot program are those with severe mental or physical disabilities. Everybody else "can" program. The question is whether they even try, or just wimp out and assume they can't. It's nothing magic, just a skill like any other. It comes more naturally to some of us, but anybody can do it. If you choose not to, then that's your choice; own it. Don't act like some persecuted faction just because you choose not to improve yourself."
This exemplifies what I think is a common line of thinking about VO from many vets, and perhaps even the devs. It also highlights one of the three primary problems VO has which limit its success (the other two being content and grind).
Plugins are a HUGE part of VO, and they render enormous advantages to those who write/wield them. And while their mention isn't completely hidden per se in the main description of the game on this site (presumably what most newbs read before they install/sign up), it most certainly is not emphasized to any degree close to what they should be given their role in the game.
Now, it's not that I think VO needs a proper, highly visual disclaimer that says "programming knowledge gives you a huge advantage in this game". And I love plugins, don't get me wrong. But I think there needs to be some honest discussion on how this aspect of the game has been affecting the online population.
No one can argue that VO has a massive online population, and I think 99% of people who play VO would agree that it would be SO much better if more people played. What also can't be argued, however, is that VO has a pretty significant population of people who have programming skills. This is a cool thing for that community, but for those OUTSIDE that community who have zero programming skills, nor any interest in or time to acquire them, it is repulsive, particularly when the outsiders start to realize there are modifications you need to make to the current game client (via plugins) before you can get anywhere close to having the same advantages and opportunities as the vets. And while the world has moved steadily towards a more heavily techology-minded population, I think you'd be kidding yourself to think that the community of people with programming skills who like to play space games is still very much untapped by VO. In otherwords, the people VO isn't attracting, and the people we all want more of, are the general gaming public who just want to PLAY, not tinker.
So the question is where should the balance should be between a modified VO experience (with plugins) and a straight, out of the box experience. I would argue that it's currently tipped too far in favor of "modified" experience. Plugins such as Targetless, Trade Assistant, and Toaster Crush Suite provide such integral features to the gameplay that many players over the years have questioned the devs as to why they haven't been just integrated into the main client. Certianly we all understand there is only SO much dev-time, and the tasks they accomplish are chosen according to what's the best priority for the game overall. But really, I think integrating many of the features in those plugins would go a long way in helping keep people around.
So I emplore you nerds (which I say lovingly) to think about what you are saying when you ask for something that can be accessible only to those who know how to program. Some people are totally comfortable with VO being a boutique MMORPG, but I'm not one of them.
"The only people who cannot program are those with severe mental or physical disabilities. Everybody else "can" program. The question is whether they even try, or just wimp out and assume they can't. It's nothing magic, just a skill like any other. It comes more naturally to some of us, but anybody can do it. If you choose not to, then that's your choice; own it. Don't act like some persecuted faction just because you choose not to improve yourself."
This exemplifies what I think is a common line of thinking about VO from many vets, and perhaps even the devs. It also highlights one of the three primary problems VO has which limit its success (the other two being content and grind).
Plugins are a HUGE part of VO, and they render enormous advantages to those who write/wield them. And while their mention isn't completely hidden per se in the main description of the game on this site (presumably what most newbs read before they install/sign up), it most certainly is not emphasized to any degree close to what they should be given their role in the game.
Now, it's not that I think VO needs a proper, highly visual disclaimer that says "programming knowledge gives you a huge advantage in this game". And I love plugins, don't get me wrong. But I think there needs to be some honest discussion on how this aspect of the game has been affecting the online population.
No one can argue that VO has a massive online population, and I think 99% of people who play VO would agree that it would be SO much better if more people played. What also can't be argued, however, is that VO has a pretty significant population of people who have programming skills. This is a cool thing for that community, but for those OUTSIDE that community who have zero programming skills, nor any interest in or time to acquire them, it is repulsive, particularly when the outsiders start to realize there are modifications you need to make to the current game client (via plugins) before you can get anywhere close to having the same advantages and opportunities as the vets. And while the world has moved steadily towards a more heavily techology-minded population, I think you'd be kidding yourself to think that the community of people with programming skills who like to play space games is still very much untapped by VO. In otherwords, the people VO isn't attracting, and the people we all want more of, are the general gaming public who just want to PLAY, not tinker.
So the question is where should the balance should be between a modified VO experience (with plugins) and a straight, out of the box experience. I would argue that it's currently tipped too far in favor of "modified" experience. Plugins such as Targetless, Trade Assistant, and Toaster Crush Suite provide such integral features to the gameplay that many players over the years have questioned the devs as to why they haven't been just integrated into the main client. Certianly we all understand there is only SO much dev-time, and the tasks they accomplish are chosen according to what's the best priority for the game overall. But really, I think integrating many of the features in those plugins would go a long way in helping keep people around.
So I emplore you nerds (which I say lovingly) to think about what you are saying when you ask for something that can be accessible only to those who know how to program. Some people are totally comfortable with VO being a boutique MMORPG, but I'm not one of them.
What is this garbage?
There aren't any Trannies on this topic Genka, you can leave.
"Plugins are a HUGE part of VO, and they render enormous advantages to those who write/wield them."
So what? The only plugins that offer an "enormous advantage" are publicly available. Anybody can install them, whether they know how to program or not.
So what? The only plugins that offer an "enormous advantage" are publicly available. Anybody can install them, whether they know how to program or not.
I hear what you're saying Greenwall, maybe the feature that needs to be included in the client is a plugin manager to make selection, installation, activation, deactivation of plugins trivial across all platforms.
@Pizzasgood: 'Publicly available' is true in the strictest sense, but one either has to keep up on the forums or go to third party sites to search for or hear of them. It's not simple for a new player to dig through the old threads to find stuff.
@Pizzasgood: 'Publicly available' is true in the strictest sense, but one either has to keep up on the forums or go to third party sites to search for or hear of them. It's not simple for a new player to dig through the old threads to find stuff.
@csgno1
Yes thats true, this is why we've tried to put them all in one place. VOUPR.
While it's not official, pretty much everything you could need is in there.
Yes thats true, this is why we've tried to put them all in one place. VOUPR.
While it's not official, pretty much everything you could need is in there.
Greenwall, plugins are not such a huge part of the game as you are making them out to be. They are very helpful, but are only perceived to be as great as you'd like us to believe because there are so few people writing utility plugins for public use. Compare plugins in VO to addons in World of Warcraft. They impart as much of an advantage, but there are numerous options available. The ratio of non-programmers to programmers is probably bigger too.
Furthermore, as I already stated in another thread, the API exists to allow us to change things that either the devs devs may not have thought of; or didn't have time to do; or didn't feel it fit their design plan, but didn't want to prevent others from having that option. Would you rather the devs spend all of their time trying to create GUI options for every little detail, or making the game better? By giving us the ability to configure things via the API, we can attain those changes that we'd like to see.
Furthermore, as I already stated in another thread, the API exists to allow us to change things that either the devs devs may not have thought of; or didn't have time to do; or didn't feel it fit their design plan, but didn't want to prevent others from having that option. Would you rather the devs spend all of their time trying to create GUI options for every little detail, or making the game better? By giving us the ability to configure things via the API, we can attain those changes that we'd like to see.
I agree that plugins provide a massive advantage to lots of different forms of gameplay, especially differing forms of gameplay to the standard sit in sedina b8 and duel people, you know, the forms that interesting people seek out.
The plugins that offer massive advantages aren't all publicly available. But it wouldn't be very fun if they were. They can't be because I wrote them, you can't have them and I challenge you all to try and steal them from me.
The open LUA API is one of the best features of this game hands down. Nobody should ever suggest it be dispensed with ever. All you're really asking for is for features like those in targetless, ta and tcs to be integrated from the start to help with user retention. Well that's something everyone's asked about for years and like so many other things it should be a no. 1 priority but it isn't.
So, file it in the rubbish bin!
The plugins that offer massive advantages aren't all publicly available. But it wouldn't be very fun if they were. They can't be because I wrote them, you can't have them and I challenge you all to try and steal them from me.
The open LUA API is one of the best features of this game hands down. Nobody should ever suggest it be dispensed with ever. All you're really asking for is for features like those in targetless, ta and tcs to be integrated from the start to help with user retention. Well that's something everyone's asked about for years and like so many other things it should be a no. 1 priority but it isn't.
So, file it in the rubbish bin!
I'll give you an example; many of you know that we once had a list of who was offline and who was online on this website. Of course that list was abolished by popular demand but there are many functions within the game that will indicate to you whether or not a player is online or offline.
So we had this idea that we could just use those functions in conjuction with a number of different sources to create a database of players based on who we had actually seen in space and who had sent a message on 100 and regularly query those functions to determine when they were online. Once the profiles of each persons regular playing patterns were established the bot would know they were more likely to be online in a given timezone so it would ping them more often in that timezone.
This data is then simply relayed back to a server and any of our guild members can view a list of people who are confirmed to be online within the last 5 minutes or so.
So while yes, the online/offline page has been gone for a long time, we've had our own online/offline page for ages now and we essentially have the freedom to trade or build cappies when none of our enemies are online because we can simply check their online status and assess the risk before even logging on.
So we had this idea that we could just use those functions in conjuction with a number of different sources to create a database of players based on who we had actually seen in space and who had sent a message on 100 and regularly query those functions to determine when they were online. Once the profiles of each persons regular playing patterns were established the bot would know they were more likely to be online in a given timezone so it would ping them more often in that timezone.
This data is then simply relayed back to a server and any of our guild members can view a list of people who are confirmed to be online within the last 5 minutes or so.
So while yes, the online/offline page has been gone for a long time, we've had our own online/offline page for ages now and we essentially have the freedom to trade or build cappies when none of our enemies are online because we can simply check their online status and assess the risk before even logging on.
"So what? The only plugins that offer an "enormous advantage" are publicly available. Anybody can install them, whether they know how to program or not." -Rin
The plugins that offer massive advantages aren't all publicly available. -TRS
That's hard to argue, given the fact that precisely by not being publicly available they present a massive advantage. But sure, there's a lot of plugins that are quite useful and complex that aren't available. As I said, this is not about making all plugins avaliable and integrated into the game, it's about making the game more playable out of the box.
I hear what you're saying Greenwall, maybe the feature that needs to be included in the client is a plugin manager to make selection, installation, activation, deactivation of plugins trivial across all platforms. -csgno1
Yeah, that would help greatly. Even the simple process of creating a plugins folder in the right location confounds many newbs.
They [plugins] are very helpful, but are only perceived to be as great as you'd like us to believe because there are so few people writing utility plugins for public use. - Draugath
Draugath, I don't play WoW, so I can't compare. But what I do know is if I suddenly had all my plugins removed and I had to play the default version of VO, I'd quit in a heartbeat. I think a lot of other people would too.
Also, re: API, you misunderstand my point. I'm saying that the devs should integrate a couple plugins into the game to attract more players, not all plugins that exist.
By giving us the ability to configure things via the API, we can attain those changes that we'd like to see. -Draugath
You mean YOU can attain those changes, ye who has the ability to do so. And again, that's fine, I understand it's a cool thing about VO.
The plugins that offer massive advantages aren't all publicly available. -TRS
That's hard to argue, given the fact that precisely by not being publicly available they present a massive advantage. But sure, there's a lot of plugins that are quite useful and complex that aren't available. As I said, this is not about making all plugins avaliable and integrated into the game, it's about making the game more playable out of the box.
I hear what you're saying Greenwall, maybe the feature that needs to be included in the client is a plugin manager to make selection, installation, activation, deactivation of plugins trivial across all platforms. -csgno1
Yeah, that would help greatly. Even the simple process of creating a plugins folder in the right location confounds many newbs.
They [plugins] are very helpful, but are only perceived to be as great as you'd like us to believe because there are so few people writing utility plugins for public use. - Draugath
Draugath, I don't play WoW, so I can't compare. But what I do know is if I suddenly had all my plugins removed and I had to play the default version of VO, I'd quit in a heartbeat. I think a lot of other people would too.
Also, re: API, you misunderstand my point. I'm saying that the devs should integrate a couple plugins into the game to attract more players, not all plugins that exist.
By giving us the ability to configure things via the API, we can attain those changes that we'd like to see. -Draugath
You mean YOU can attain those changes, ye who has the ability to do so. And again, that's fine, I understand it's a cool thing about VO.
I could program but i wont waste my time on dat when other have more time and are more efficient than me.
The main issue with the plugin is the lack of transparency leadin' to rumors.
A nice feature to add on vo web site would be an automatic plugin submission application. That would publish the source on some part of the website and calculate a key from the submitted source allowing the client to run this code and only this code. Any modification of the code without making it public would prevent the code from running on the client connected to the production server. A message indicating why the plugin was disabled should appear in the client log.
Non public plugin code could run on the test server for debugging purpose of course.
The main issue with the plugin is the lack of transparency leadin' to rumors.
A nice feature to add on vo web site would be an automatic plugin submission application. That would publish the source on some part of the website and calculate a key from the submitted source allowing the client to run this code and only this code. Any modification of the code without making it public would prevent the code from running on the client connected to the production server. A message indicating why the plugin was disabled should appear in the client log.
Non public plugin code could run on the test server for debugging purpose of course.
I think the default game client is sorely lacking in the situational awareness department. Up until a bit over a year ago there wasn't even a way to see subfaction standing on another player without a plugin.
My 2c:
[disclaimer: I am a programmer, but for me programming is work and when I'm playing games I'd rather blow stuff up than fix bugs ... so I haven't yet programmed any plugins or looked at their source]
I think the plugins/lua API are a really nice feature of the game and they have enabled a lot of content that we otherwise wouldn't see. The devs are doing a nice job balancing the capabilities of lua so useful content can be added without affecting the twitch combat nature of the game.
For me, flying a spacecraft is the primary skill of this game. Being able to write plugins is one of the many "secondary" skills that are useful in this game, which also include the diplomatic/organizational skills required to run a guild or group, the psychology to think what the enemy might be doing, and in a sense even being able to speak English. You can enjoy the game without any of them and be successful at the main aspects of the game (pvp, trading, mining), but you will lose out quite a bit without them.
Also, as a programmer I am very sympathetic with the (indy) devs that sometimes a feature is worth adding to the API without adding it to the default interface, either because that takes much more programming (plus q/a, debugging, etc) or because they want to keep the interface simple.
That said, there are two things the devs could do to make this more enjoyable:
1) (as suggested above) an in-game interface to list, install, and de-install plugins; optionally combined with a community-managed plugin repository
2) (as suggested by Greenwall) periodically add some of the plugin functionality that a lot of people seem to use back into the game so the "vanilla" interface becomes more useful. Targetless should be high on this list.
[disclaimer: I am a programmer, but for me programming is work and when I'm playing games I'd rather blow stuff up than fix bugs ... so I haven't yet programmed any plugins or looked at their source]
I think the plugins/lua API are a really nice feature of the game and they have enabled a lot of content that we otherwise wouldn't see. The devs are doing a nice job balancing the capabilities of lua so useful content can be added without affecting the twitch combat nature of the game.
For me, flying a spacecraft is the primary skill of this game. Being able to write plugins is one of the many "secondary" skills that are useful in this game, which also include the diplomatic/organizational skills required to run a guild or group, the psychology to think what the enemy might be doing, and in a sense even being able to speak English. You can enjoy the game without any of them and be successful at the main aspects of the game (pvp, trading, mining), but you will lose out quite a bit without them.
Also, as a programmer I am very sympathetic with the (indy) devs that sometimes a feature is worth adding to the API without adding it to the default interface, either because that takes much more programming (plus q/a, debugging, etc) or because they want to keep the interface simple.
That said, there are two things the devs could do to make this more enjoyable:
1) (as suggested above) an in-game interface to list, install, and de-install plugins; optionally combined with a community-managed plugin repository
2) (as suggested by Greenwall) periodically add some of the plugin functionality that a lot of people seem to use back into the game so the "vanilla" interface becomes more useful. Targetless should be high on this list.
can i play too ?
People keep saying, include parts of plugins into the default interface. This is something that WoW has done over the years. But keep in mind that many of these plugins took months to reach their current level of maturity, and many of them have really shitty code that the devs would never just drop into the main client, (also WoW has more developers). They would need to be rewritten in large part. TargetLess especially should not be included in whole, and the parts that should be included are a mess. QA on new code can take some time to make sure there are no bugs, and making a GUI can take even longer.
Fuck TargetLess. It's a very useful plugin, but the devs would get way more bang for their buck by implementing a simple "SoAndSo has entered the sector in a <ship>" alert. That's a one afternoon project, and solves the biggest issue with the vanilla interface.
Yeah I'm pretty sure that the devs wouldn't use a single line of code from the current plugins, if only because of copyright issues.
However, 80% of resources invested in code is the time to figure out what you actually need and how it should be implemented to be easy to use and with the right level of detail. This work they can directly copy from the plugins.
(and I think the list of in-sector ships grouped by pvp/pve/capital and sorted by distance is also immensely useful to get some sort of idea of what's going on. I used the radar interface back in elite and UIM but for some reason it is too cluttered with friendlies/neutrals to be much help to me in VO...
However, 80% of resources invested in code is the time to figure out what you actually need and how it should be implemented to be easy to use and with the right level of detail. This work they can directly copy from the plugins.
(and I think the list of in-sector ships grouped by pvp/pve/capital and sorted by distance is also immensely useful to get some sort of idea of what's going on. I used the radar interface back in elite and UIM but for some reason it is too cluttered with friendlies/neutrals to be much help to me in VO...
I think I have figured out what this garbage is: a dumb circle-jerk for "plugin enthusiasts."
The "dumb circle-jerk for 'Putin-enthusiasts'" thread is over there genka ->
Off you go.
Off you go.
"The plugins that offer massive advantages aren't all publicly available. But it wouldn't be very fun if they were. They can't be because I wrote them, you can't have them and I challenge you all to try and steal them from me."
You really are an arrogant git espionage/trs.
We did steal them, they aren't any better than those written by other players.
You really are an arrogant git espionage/trs.
We did steal them, they aren't any better than those written by other players.