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Actually I'd still like to see the centurions loose almost all of thier cargo. Drop them to 0-2 cargo each (0-IBG/Orion, 1-cent 1&3, 2[maybe 4] cent 2)
Having spent the night thinking about it, REducing the prom's thrust by about 25 - 50 N across the board is probably desirable, It does react just a hair fast, but re-reading the board here, A lot of the complaint is from the fact that the prom is a super effective rocket ram ship because of its hull. (a ram being firing the rockets while the target is within the prox detonation zone, making them unavoidable)
Add a 1 second safety to the proximity warheads of all missiles and rockets, and the problem goes away. If you actually get a contact hit with the rocket, it will still go off, but the proximity wont activate for 1 second after launch, That will mean rockets have to be fired from farther away, and give light ships a chance to get into "knife" fighting range of the prometheous.
Having spent the night thinking about it, REducing the prom's thrust by about 25 - 50 N across the board is probably desirable, It does react just a hair fast, but re-reading the board here, A lot of the complaint is from the fact that the prom is a super effective rocket ram ship because of its hull. (a ram being firing the rockets while the target is within the prox detonation zone, making them unavoidable)
Add a 1 second safety to the proximity warheads of all missiles and rockets, and the problem goes away. If you actually get a contact hit with the rocket, it will still go off, but the proximity wont activate for 1 second after launch, That will mean rockets have to be fired from farther away, and give light ships a chance to get into "knife" fighting range of the prometheous.
Starfisher, you might like to edit the first phrase of your post. Ananzi and a few others including me have lost dozens of ships last week against Proms and Orion cents in CtC runs BEFORE we mathematically won. [FM forgive me if this is not really on topic]
No ship should have -zero- cargo. Personally, I think 2cu for Centurion Mark 1, 4cu for the Cargo Centurion (3?) and 1cu for all other Centurions is fine.
I guess I'm the only one who thinks that the cargo space in the Centurians is actually a liability for them, that should not be taken away. Either the Cent isn't using its cargo space, in which case it makes no difference whether it has the space or not, or if it is using the space, then it has additional mass that it has to deal with, which drops its combat effectiveness greatly, and drops its ability to run away (as in CtC) a little bit. If the cargo space is dropped to 4 or less, then it won't be nearly as hampered by having a full load.
An alternative that I'd like better, would be to decrease the Cents empty mass & thrust, so that using the cargo space would have an even larger impact.
But anyway, if it is decided to decrease the cargo space in Centurians, I'm with roguelazer, no ship should have 0 cargo space.
An alternative that I'd like better, would be to decrease the Cents empty mass & thrust, so that using the cargo space would have an even larger impact.
But anyway, if it is decided to decrease the cargo space in Centurians, I'm with roguelazer, no ship should have 0 cargo space.
ok, i could live with none of them having 0 (tho the cargo cent is the mk2, maybe 2 for the mk1, 3 for the mk2 and 1 for all others).
As for the cargo space amount beolach, I disagree entirely. even the CtC cargo doesn't increase thier mass by enough to make a significant difference in the thrust they generate. and the 8 cargo spaces on the mk3 means that it can be used for most of the CtC week as an uncatchable carrier, tho the fact that it has some drain now does help. Its a motor with a gun attached, It shouldn't have enough cargo to do more than haul a single crate around as a fast deliver ship for special missions.
As for the cargo space amount beolach, I disagree entirely. even the CtC cargo doesn't increase thier mass by enough to make a significant difference in the thrust they generate. and the 8 cargo spaces on the mk3 means that it can be used for most of the CtC week as an uncatchable carrier, tho the fact that it has some drain now does help. Its a motor with a gun attached, It shouldn't have enough cargo to do more than haul a single crate around as a fast deliver ship for special missions.
i really think guild wastes too much time reading 100 post threads written by whining pvpers.
this game is not just pvp. if you want quake, go back to quake or whatever. stop taking attention away from things like the user interface problems, n00b retention, tutorials, server crashes, bugs, lag problems, rendering weirdness, temporal anomalies, updating documentation, fixing broken missions, and other things that are more important.
almost nobody gives a shit if such and such combat ship is 100kg too heavy... 99% of people who play this game can't tell the difference and they don't care anyways.
they probably give up long before they ever reach combat 8 to even get these ships and weapons you are talking about in the first place.
this game is not just pvp. if you want quake, go back to quake or whatever. stop taking attention away from things like the user interface problems, n00b retention, tutorials, server crashes, bugs, lag problems, rendering weirdness, temporal anomalies, updating documentation, fixing broken missions, and other things that are more important.
almost nobody gives a shit if such and such combat ship is 100kg too heavy... 99% of people who play this game can't tell the difference and they don't care anyways.
they probably give up long before they ever reach combat 8 to even get these ships and weapons you are talking about in the first place.
@Spellcast: I think it does already make enough of a difference, or at least almost. There's been times that I was flying a cent, and was able to catch, kill, and recover cargo that had been stolen by someone who was also in a cent, in a 1 on 1 chase - not very often, and only when I was also in a cent, but I have done it. It's also a lot easier if I can get some teamwork going on the chase.
But even if you still think it doesn't make enough of a difference to matter, which I can understand in most situations, decreasing the cargo space would make it matter even less. If the Cents empty mass & thrust were lowered a bit, but the cargo space was kept the same, then it would matter more. IMO that would make the cent less of an uber-CtC ship than dropping the cargo space.
But even if you still think it doesn't make enough of a difference to matter, which I can understand in most situations, decreasing the cargo space would make it matter even less. If the Cents empty mass & thrust were lowered a bit, but the cargo space was kept the same, then it would matter more. IMO that would make the cent less of an uber-CtC ship than dropping the cargo space.
I think we've drifted WAAAAY off topic...
@ananzi- it's the specifics that make the game. Yeah, we could worry about system crashes, but if the system never crashes and the game sucks (which it doesnt!) then what's the point? I know many of the players who have posted good suggestions on this board HAVE reached combat eight and DO care about ship configs. If you want to focus on the 'big' problems, you shouldn't have replied to this thread.
@spellcast- regarding your final point on my second post, WE ARE *NOT* COMPLAINING BECAUSE THE PROM IS A "CHALLENGE" What I have repeated MULTIPLE times in all my posts, (and that no one seems to listen to) is that we are NOT complaining about the prom being good in the hands of vets, but the prom being good in the hands of noobs. In the *old* days when the Valk was the uber ship, did you have n00bs flying up to you and killing you handily? If so, than you know how it feels. If not, then I don't think your points have much relevence.
@ananzi- it's the specifics that make the game. Yeah, we could worry about system crashes, but if the system never crashes and the game sucks (which it doesnt!) then what's the point? I know many of the players who have posted good suggestions on this board HAVE reached combat eight and DO care about ship configs. If you want to focus on the 'big' problems, you shouldn't have replied to this thread.
@spellcast- regarding your final point on my second post, WE ARE *NOT* COMPLAINING BECAUSE THE PROM IS A "CHALLENGE" What I have repeated MULTIPLE times in all my posts, (and that no one seems to listen to) is that we are NOT complaining about the prom being good in the hands of vets, but the prom being good in the hands of noobs. In the *old* days when the Valk was the uber ship, did you have n00bs flying up to you and killing you handily? If so, than you know how it feels. If not, then I don't think your points have much relevence.
actually we did have noobs flying up and killing us in valks, and yes we do know how it feels, but I've flown a few ships against proms to see how it handles from the other side, and it is not as bad as the valk was when it was the uber ship. that was a nightmare, because at the time there weren't even levels. Players who had been in the game 10 minites could beg for money and have a valk, and kill people with it. It could attack you, and even if you didnt die, you had no chance of running away because it was so much faster, and if you damaged it, it just fled.
You are complaining that the prom is hard to kill, It's supposed to be, but the fact is that you at least have the option to disengage and get the hell away from it. You didnt have that option against a valk.
The skycommand is the only one that is super agile and it has trouble keeping up with a running target because of the turbo drain. I wouldnt mind a small reduction in the thrust, It does handle just a little too well, but not significantly, and I would prefer to wait for that until they have retweaked the light ships, and done some more balance to the ships that havent been modified yet.
The main problem that I see is the rockets, the prom DOES make a superb rocket ramming ship, because it can just soak up the damage as it fires. The fix is with the rockets, not the prom.
Change tactics, take 2 ships to the fight, use a light fighter to distract it while your buddy slips up in a rangarok and unloads a pair of swarms into it. Catch it at the right time and it doesnt have the power to turbo up to speed and avoid the swarms in time. Use 2 light fighters and harass it to keep it busy and distracted. Its not like fighting light vs light which is all that was viable for so long. You absoulutely CANNOT get to within 200 meters and just circle/dodge each other. It will eat you alive if you do.
You are complaining that the prom is hard to kill, It's supposed to be, but the fact is that you at least have the option to disengage and get the hell away from it. You didnt have that option against a valk.
The skycommand is the only one that is super agile and it has trouble keeping up with a running target because of the turbo drain. I wouldnt mind a small reduction in the thrust, It does handle just a little too well, but not significantly, and I would prefer to wait for that until they have retweaked the light ships, and done some more balance to the ships that havent been modified yet.
The main problem that I see is the rockets, the prom DOES make a superb rocket ramming ship, because it can just soak up the damage as it fires. The fix is with the rockets, not the prom.
Change tactics, take 2 ships to the fight, use a light fighter to distract it while your buddy slips up in a rangarok and unloads a pair of swarms into it. Catch it at the right time and it doesnt have the power to turbo up to speed and avoid the swarms in time. Use 2 light fighters and harass it to keep it busy and distracted. Its not like fighting light vs light which is all that was viable for so long. You absoulutely CANNOT get to within 200 meters and just circle/dodge each other. It will eat you alive if you do.
Well, the valk of beta wasn't that bad. If you were in an SVG, you could escape/defeat it a good amount of the time. Where the Valk's strength came in was inside of a large battle, since it could effectively move across the battlefield, and isolate opponents.
But it frustrates me that the two tactics I have to take against a prom, are the two tactics that are the least fun to implement. Keeping a very long distance/constantly backing off, and swarming.
Both of these are boring and one dimensional. The problem is, between rocketrams and close range AGT, the strength of the light fighter is totally fizzled, shouldn't it be the heavy ship which is forced to back off? to compensate for its lack of turning ability?
Oh, and the drain of the SC is 60, that's more than useable, I get around the galaxy in only 60 drain ships, you guys are just too used to infiniturbo.
@ananzi: yah I guess we're really ignoring all the hordes of intelligent suggesters. Seeing as this is a forum where if a topic isn't interesting, you're not forced to reply to it. And dude, how long have you been playing this game? and you already know exactly what the devs should be working on? I guess the rest of us are pointless.
But it frustrates me that the two tactics I have to take against a prom, are the two tactics that are the least fun to implement. Keeping a very long distance/constantly backing off, and swarming.
Both of these are boring and one dimensional. The problem is, between rocketrams and close range AGT, the strength of the light fighter is totally fizzled, shouldn't it be the heavy ship which is forced to back off? to compensate for its lack of turning ability?
Oh, and the drain of the SC is 60, that's more than useable, I get around the galaxy in only 60 drain ships, you guys are just too used to infiniturbo.
@ananzi: yah I guess we're really ignoring all the hordes of intelligent suggesters. Seeing as this is a forum where if a topic isn't interesting, you're not forced to reply to it. And dude, how long have you been playing this game? and you already know exactly what the devs should be working on? I guess the rest of us are pointless.
Who are these newbs in Proms. I haven't seen any yet. Unless you're calling me a newb :P
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Both of these are boring and one dimensional. The problem is, between rocketrams and close range AGT, the strength of the light fighter is totally fizzled, shouldn't it be the heavy ship which is forced to back off? to compensate for its lack of turning ability?
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Okay, let's take a humvee-mounted 50-cal (prom w/AGT) vs. a dude on foot with an M-60 (Valk w/tachs). You're saying that the 50-cal should have to back off from the guy with the rifle to make up for its lack of maneuverability?
The problem is that the dude with the rifle has been fighting against 50-cals mounted on a VW beetle for most of his life, and is used to being able to run straight up and let loose. Now, he faces an armored vehicle and wonders why running straight up keeps getting him killed (assuming instant reincarnation. Humor me). What he needs to do is put down the M-60 and grab a sniper rifle (rails) and stay the hell away from the 50-cal's effective range while pecking it to death with distance shots.
The Valk is far more maneuverable than any Prom. It can dart off to 500m, slam 1200 damage worth of rails into the Prom, dart off again and repeat. That Itani pilots are wasting such an advantage by walking up to an assault vehicle is not our problem.
Both of these are boring and one dimensional. The problem is, between rocketrams and close range AGT, the strength of the light fighter is totally fizzled, shouldn't it be the heavy ship which is forced to back off? to compensate for its lack of turning ability?
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Okay, let's take a humvee-mounted 50-cal (prom w/AGT) vs. a dude on foot with an M-60 (Valk w/tachs). You're saying that the 50-cal should have to back off from the guy with the rifle to make up for its lack of maneuverability?
The problem is that the dude with the rifle has been fighting against 50-cals mounted on a VW beetle for most of his life, and is used to being able to run straight up and let loose. Now, he faces an armored vehicle and wonders why running straight up keeps getting him killed (assuming instant reincarnation. Humor me). What he needs to do is put down the M-60 and grab a sniper rifle (rails) and stay the hell away from the 50-cal's effective range while pecking it to death with distance shots.
The Valk is far more maneuverable than any Prom. It can dart off to 500m, slam 1200 damage worth of rails into the Prom, dart off again and repeat. That Itani pilots are wasting such an advantage by walking up to an assault vehicle is not our problem.
well ctish, thats almost a viable tactic, but as it is the prom can defintiely dodge rails at 400 meters. Lower its thrust a bit, and that would work, but the main problem is still the rocketram as far as i can tell. The AGT can be dodged quite easily by a IBG cent even point blank if no rockets are used to tumble it.
As has been pointed out, the Prom can dodge rails. And can a Valk even mount the requisite number of rails to do enough damage to kill the prom? And still be able to fly?
Which leads me back to this - why are the rockets hitting you at all? Back when everyone rammed, I became quite adept at dodging them, spotting their intent far off and getting myself into a good evasive dash. As far as dodging rockets are concerned, rolling is a death-trap. Dodge on a straight vector to waste their ammo. Count shots to know when they'll run out.
As to actually hitting them with rails, the trick is to avoid predictability. Use your primary energy gun to force them into a roll that takes time to stop (e.g. the infamous gat-roll), then reverse your direction quick and snap 'em with a rail round. I know it works because it's worked on me in much more maneuverable ships than even the new Prom.
The trick is adapting tactics from light vs. light barrelthons to a more erratic pattern involving dodging, weaving and timed knockout punches.
As to actually hitting them with rails, the trick is to avoid predictability. Use your primary energy gun to force them into a roll that takes time to stop (e.g. the infamous gat-roll), then reverse your direction quick and snap 'em with a rail round. I know it works because it's worked on me in much more maneuverable ships than even the new Prom.
The trick is adapting tactics from light vs. light barrelthons to a more erratic pattern involving dodging, weaving and timed knockout punches.
By the way - the Railgun MKI does 1400/shot. That means you'd have to land 50% of your fire to take down a SkyCommand, and if you can't do even that, you need to practice more.
Let's make it like school, and say that 50% is a failing grade. Do better, and you might get a C, B or A. Do better 25 times (not even against a SkyCommand) and you get the Rail MKII.
Let's make it like school, and say that 50% is a failing grade. Do better, and you might get a C, B or A. Do better 25 times (not even against a SkyCommand) and you get the Rail MKII.
ctishman :
Have you ever tried to take down a prom with rails?
Thanks.
Have you ever tried to take down a prom with rails?
Thanks.
Uh huh. Ever tried to take down a prebalance Valk with rails? I've done that, too.
Ok.
I guess I am not l337 enough for this game.
I guess I am not l337 enough for this game.
I'm not saying that you're not 1337 enough. Ask around - I'm hardly what would be called an elite pilot, or anything close. What I am is inventive and unpredictable, and this enables me to win in situations that I am not expected to.
I've got a suggestion for all of you. Build up, say, 100k in reserves through trading and the like, take a cheap Centaur MKI, find a willing opponent in a Prom and do stupid things against him. Be suicidal. Perform boneheaded maneuvers that could get you killed. It's obvious that what you're trying isn't working, so change what you're trying or you cannot hope to win.
I've got a suggestion for all of you. Build up, say, 100k in reserves through trading and the like, take a cheap Centaur MKI, find a willing opponent in a Prom and do stupid things against him. Be suicidal. Perform boneheaded maneuvers that could get you killed. It's obvious that what you're trying isn't working, so change what you're trying or you cannot hope to win.