Forums » Suggestions
i was running around in dau g-2 for the last days, getting my miners-license up. while scanning the roids there, i found a really big one with 7000+ kelvin. wondering who took the time to heat that up, i started to thinnk about temperature in general.
so i did my homework, searched the suggestions and came up with this old idea:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/9797
to my surprise, nothing was said about why the idea would not be implemented, so i guess the devs are not entirely against it.
however, my model would look a bit different and i would also conrtibute by working out some numbers.
i haven't worked out concrete formulae yet, as i just got up :P
but the model would work like this:
it would have two events, one for the melting-point and one for the boiling-point of the ores. as we're in a vacuum (but a special one where you can hear nearby ships turbo) there would actually be only solid and vaporized material so it could be implemented using only two states, too. however, it would be a lot less interesting then :P
examples:
100% aquatic -> 274 kelvin (melting) and 374 kelvin (boiling)
100% silicate -> 1683 and 2628 kelvin
100% ferric -> 1811 and 3134 kelvin
now for a mixed roid, the probability of an event to happen would depend on the ore-percentages and their event temperatures (i am avoiding the term critical temperature here because it is something entirely different in thermodynamics).
example:
roid with 33% aqua, 33% sili and 34% iron:
below 274 kelvin, the probability for a "melt"-event is 0. from there, it starts to climb, reaching 100% at 1811 kelvin. the gradient would be 67% (iron+sili) until it reaches 1683 (sili melting-point) and 34% (only iron) thereafter.
same for the probability of a "vaporize"-event:
0 until 374 -> 67% gradient until 2628 -> 34% gradient until 3134 -> 100% probability
at a given point, the game determines whether an event is going to happen. this could be implemented in several ways:
- fixed probabilities are randomed when the mining starts. as soon as they're reached, the event happens.
- a number between 0 and 100 is randomed every now and then while mining. if it is below the probability, the event happens.
finally, we need to decide on the events. this is actually the hard part developer-wise, as it might need new animations, new models or maybe even completely new physics.
i have several suggestions for this and will sort them from highest to lowest amount of work:
"completely realistic" (actually not, but pretty close):
a melting-event would cause a massive slowdown in mining and enable the roid to fuse with other roids for a certain time.
a vaporizing-event would cause the roid to split in two smaller ones, maybe even with different ore-distributions than the parent had (but adding up to those the parent had). it would also be able to fuse with others for a longer time and the new roids would be moving apart.
while they cool, more random-checks could be made and when the number is bigger than the probability, the roids change from vapor-state to liquid-state. further rolls are made for that and finally fuse-time ends and the roid changes back to normal.
this would require roids to drift, collide (make fuse-checks on collissions), etc. it would sure make mining A LOT more interesting (read: dangerous), but also require the server to calculate their routes continously (heavy server load) and a mechanism to keep the fields together (span them across the whole sector, add something like gravity that only affects other roids or whatever) and is thus probably not going to happen.
however, this would not really need new animations (vaporized or liquid roids) because in reality, not the whole roid will heat up, but only the point where the beam hits it.
"implementable" (but with new animations, models and states, pretty unrealistic):
melting-event makes the roid change into a liquid form. those "bubbles" can only be mined really slowly, touching them (or flying through them) causes damage based on their temperature.
a vaporizing-event would turn the blob into a cloud that cannot be mined anymore and causes severe damage on passing them.
i would not make the liquid contract into a spheric form, because then we would either need to be able to deform it again (debris and ships flying through it) or end up with all roids being spheres. the vapor-clouds however could be a bit bigger than the blobs, because gases usually take up more space.
again, checks on changing the state back to liquid/normal while cooling would be needed.
this could be implemented by new textures (liquid-looking and vapor-like (semi-transparent) and maybe a few new models (liquid state without rough edges, vapor-state a bit bigger) and finally additional physics (being able to fly through blobs/clouds). however, the two last points would be optional, i think.
"easy implementation" (only needs new events):
a melting-event makes the roid harder to mine until it cools down again. a vaporizing-event would cause a small explosion (radius 200m from the point where the beam hits), the main effect would be to throw you off course with some light damage (of course it may make you bounce into other roids, which causes additional damage according to the existing system).
a small change would be needed to prevent circumventing this:
currently only the distance ship<->roid is checked to ensure mining-range. if i start mining and then move along the surface of the roid, i can make the beam longer than 200m and thus move out of the area of effect. this should be changed to actually check the length of the beam.
congratulations, you read through all the text. here, take this aspirin, your head might be spinning.
so i did my homework, searched the suggestions and came up with this old idea:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/9797
to my surprise, nothing was said about why the idea would not be implemented, so i guess the devs are not entirely against it.
however, my model would look a bit different and i would also conrtibute by working out some numbers.
i haven't worked out concrete formulae yet, as i just got up :P
but the model would work like this:
it would have two events, one for the melting-point and one for the boiling-point of the ores. as we're in a vacuum (but a special one where you can hear nearby ships turbo) there would actually be only solid and vaporized material so it could be implemented using only two states, too. however, it would be a lot less interesting then :P
examples:
100% aquatic -> 274 kelvin (melting) and 374 kelvin (boiling)
100% silicate -> 1683 and 2628 kelvin
100% ferric -> 1811 and 3134 kelvin
now for a mixed roid, the probability of an event to happen would depend on the ore-percentages and their event temperatures (i am avoiding the term critical temperature here because it is something entirely different in thermodynamics).
example:
roid with 33% aqua, 33% sili and 34% iron:
below 274 kelvin, the probability for a "melt"-event is 0. from there, it starts to climb, reaching 100% at 1811 kelvin. the gradient would be 67% (iron+sili) until it reaches 1683 (sili melting-point) and 34% (only iron) thereafter.
same for the probability of a "vaporize"-event:
0 until 374 -> 67% gradient until 2628 -> 34% gradient until 3134 -> 100% probability
at a given point, the game determines whether an event is going to happen. this could be implemented in several ways:
- fixed probabilities are randomed when the mining starts. as soon as they're reached, the event happens.
- a number between 0 and 100 is randomed every now and then while mining. if it is below the probability, the event happens.
finally, we need to decide on the events. this is actually the hard part developer-wise, as it might need new animations, new models or maybe even completely new physics.
i have several suggestions for this and will sort them from highest to lowest amount of work:
"completely realistic" (actually not, but pretty close):
a melting-event would cause a massive slowdown in mining and enable the roid to fuse with other roids for a certain time.
a vaporizing-event would cause the roid to split in two smaller ones, maybe even with different ore-distributions than the parent had (but adding up to those the parent had). it would also be able to fuse with others for a longer time and the new roids would be moving apart.
while they cool, more random-checks could be made and when the number is bigger than the probability, the roids change from vapor-state to liquid-state. further rolls are made for that and finally fuse-time ends and the roid changes back to normal.
this would require roids to drift, collide (make fuse-checks on collissions), etc. it would sure make mining A LOT more interesting (read: dangerous), but also require the server to calculate their routes continously (heavy server load) and a mechanism to keep the fields together (span them across the whole sector, add something like gravity that only affects other roids or whatever) and is thus probably not going to happen.
however, this would not really need new animations (vaporized or liquid roids) because in reality, not the whole roid will heat up, but only the point where the beam hits it.
"implementable" (but with new animations, models and states, pretty unrealistic):
melting-event makes the roid change into a liquid form. those "bubbles" can only be mined really slowly, touching them (or flying through them) causes damage based on their temperature.
a vaporizing-event would turn the blob into a cloud that cannot be mined anymore and causes severe damage on passing them.
i would not make the liquid contract into a spheric form, because then we would either need to be able to deform it again (debris and ships flying through it) or end up with all roids being spheres. the vapor-clouds however could be a bit bigger than the blobs, because gases usually take up more space.
again, checks on changing the state back to liquid/normal while cooling would be needed.
this could be implemented by new textures (liquid-looking and vapor-like (semi-transparent) and maybe a few new models (liquid state without rough edges, vapor-state a bit bigger) and finally additional physics (being able to fly through blobs/clouds). however, the two last points would be optional, i think.
"easy implementation" (only needs new events):
a melting-event makes the roid harder to mine until it cools down again. a vaporizing-event would cause a small explosion (radius 200m from the point where the beam hits), the main effect would be to throw you off course with some light damage (of course it may make you bounce into other roids, which causes additional damage according to the existing system).
a small change would be needed to prevent circumventing this:
currently only the distance ship<->roid is checked to ensure mining-range. if i start mining and then move along the surface of the roid, i can make the beam longer than 200m and thus move out of the area of effect. this should be changed to actually check the length of the beam.
congratulations, you read through all the text. here, take this aspirin, your head might be spinning.
Seems like a lot of work for the devs but, it would be cool. It would also give mining a more interesting feel.
too useless; didn't read
An interesting idea, booiiing. Would definitely give reason for people to not boil roids to near physically-impossible temperatures.
I like this idea. You've got my support for it...
Skelbley, it would also give a reason to heat the roids. Destruction of resources as a means of warfare would take on new aspects with this idea, especially if the Devs ever implement any of the roid boiling beams.
You can't have liquids without atmospheric pressure. Only solids and gases. It would go from a solid straight to a gas. Though higher tempurature could cause a cloud to orbit around the spot it is suppose to be and asteroid would become smaller and smaller (though it would glow first). Then anyone flying through the cloud would take damage based off of there speed with a certain range of speeds causing no damage ( 0- X). However, there are a lot of better ideas they could be spending there time on.
I agree that something has to be done to prevent roids from reaching ridiculous temperatures (for reference, the surface temperature of our Sun is around 5,800 K).
Two ideas:
- Make mining beams without effect (neither extracting nor heating) past some critical temp (maybe 500 K? 1000 K?)
- Make very hot roids glow with heat and radiate damages (in a limited radius, following 1/r2 law?) which would eventually destroy the miner if he insists on over-heating the roid
Two ideas:
- Make mining beams without effect (neither extracting nor heating) past some critical temp (maybe 500 K? 1000 K?)
- Make very hot roids glow with heat and radiate damages (in a limited radius, following 1/r2 law?) which would eventually destroy the miner if he insists on over-heating the roid
I also hate the idea of a dark roid can be HOTTER than an average star, no matter the size of it.
And how can that be WATER ICE if temperature is hotter than boiling point at 1 atm? Since pressure is lower, boils earlier.
Also that allow one abuse, autojett on a big roid and go do something else, even play VO with other alt.
Simpliest solution, most elegant:
The temperature raises in exponential form, not linear, when heated with mining beam. And mining becomes useless way below 273K.
in ascii: ..__ 273K
in ascii: _/.. 10K
Like, at 200K, heat increase rate reduces (via radiation), while mining rate severily reduces. At 250K, no mining at all, heating rate reduces abruptly. At 270K, no effect at all, no results produced.
(Possible explanation: Heat radiation at 270K is bigger than produced big many small mining beam out of sync.)
Is it possible to have a simple visual effect on that? Like, make object brighter (albedo), colorize texture, change its alpha channel?? It would be cool to have few levels...
CONSEQUENCE: Miners will have to travel more... no more az mining inside NFZ of stations. No more abuse of autojett. Basic miner 2+ becomes very harder.
That would make mining more interesting, and create some challenge.
As a first idea for newbie protecting, we could rule that pilots with basic miners 1+ cannot mine on stations sectors, and BM2+ cannot mine on capitol systems
And how can that be WATER ICE if temperature is hotter than boiling point at 1 atm? Since pressure is lower, boils earlier.
Also that allow one abuse, autojett on a big roid and go do something else, even play VO with other alt.
Simpliest solution, most elegant:
The temperature raises in exponential form, not linear, when heated with mining beam. And mining becomes useless way below 273K.
in ascii: ..__ 273K
in ascii: _/.. 10K
Like, at 200K, heat increase rate reduces (via radiation), while mining rate severily reduces. At 250K, no mining at all, heating rate reduces abruptly. At 270K, no effect at all, no results produced.
(Possible explanation: Heat radiation at 270K is bigger than produced big many small mining beam out of sync.)
Is it possible to have a simple visual effect on that? Like, make object brighter (albedo), colorize texture, change its alpha channel?? It would be cool to have few levels...
CONSEQUENCE: Miners will have to travel more... no more az mining inside NFZ of stations. No more abuse of autojett. Basic miner 2+ becomes very harder.
That would make mining more interesting, and create some challenge.
As a first idea for newbie protecting, we could rule that pilots with basic miners 1+ cannot mine on stations sectors, and BM2+ cannot mine on capitol systems
@exDragon: oh right. i didn't think about the space being vacuum, my mistake. but the reason for that mistake is simply because you hear the turbo of nearby ships in VO ;)
apart from making it solid/vapor only, vacuum would also change the boiling-points. actually, everything that gets heated is supposed to vaporize, which is the basic working-principle of the mining beams anyway (vaporize the ores and then "transport" or "pull" them into the cargo-bay).
anyways - we're talking about science-fiction here and a universe where you can hear other ships. so realism should take a step back :P
on the other hand it would be a bit easier to implement if there were only two states (solid/vapor), so i will add that as a possibility to ease the work to the OP :)
apart from making it solid/vapor only, vacuum would also change the boiling-points. actually, everything that gets heated is supposed to vaporize, which is the basic working-principle of the mining beams anyway (vaporize the ores and then "transport" or "pull" them into the cargo-bay).
anyways - we're talking about science-fiction here and a universe where you can hear other ships. so realism should take a step back :P
on the other hand it would be a bit easier to implement if there were only two states (solid/vapor), so i will add that as a possibility to ease the work to the OP :)
A more reasonable method would be to determine the tempature of the mining beam and simply limit heating to that point. Alternatively you could apply a cooling curve that would equal the heat input of the mining beam at say 500k or so....
Reducing the maximum heat a roid can achieve to 20k would make mining far more interesting and worthwhile.
I'm just saying is all.
I'm just saying is all.
If an ice yo heats up to above 273K it should change shape to a floating blob of water, and become impossible to mine. additionally, as the temperature approaches 273K, fewer and fewer units of ore can be extracted.
Same thing with other minerals. Just come up with melting temps for them.
I think some of the more pricey asteroids should also have a possibility of exploding when they approach "melting" temps. The explosion would destroy the asteroid and all ships in the vicinity. Teach the roid boilers a lesson.
Of course, this would mean that we'd have dynamic roid placement which is not something that I think the devs can easily implement.
Oh well, I guess we're stuck with what we have currently. Like usual.
Same thing with other minerals. Just come up with melting temps for them.
I think some of the more pricey asteroids should also have a possibility of exploding when they approach "melting" temps. The explosion would destroy the asteroid and all ships in the vicinity. Teach the roid boilers a lesson.
Of course, this would mean that we'd have dynamic roid placement which is not something that I think the devs can easily implement.
Oh well, I guess we're stuck with what we have currently. Like usual.
even better but more complex, temp limit depends on composition, from 20K to ~500K
i can hardly wait to go around evaporating all the good roids so they simply arent there
i can hardly wait for the headhunters that will go after you then :P
look already has headhunters after him. They don;t bother him much.
OP,yes I think there should be consequences for over-heating roids. But making them just be GONE would create a need for 'respawning' dynamic-ish asteroids, something which would probably be a not-high priority developement time wise.
OP,yes I think there should be consequences for over-heating roids. But making them just be GONE would create a need for 'respawning' dynamic-ish asteroids, something which would probably be a not-high priority developement time wise.
So, since turning roids into clouds or explosive seems not an option, at least some hard "cap limit" depending on roid's composition, from 250K for ice up to 500K for iron.
Feasible, and better than a 10.000K ice cube...
Feasible, and better than a 10.000K ice cube...
Hmm, long term addressing these things would be good. There are over 200 000 roids out there. Overheat all the good roids in a system, local prices rise, sell stock at a profit. Win/win for me, and I suspect a lot of vets.
Short term faction system and a reason to conquer bits of space seems a more pressing issue.
Short term faction system and a reason to conquer bits of space seems a more pressing issue.
No. You should not be able to prevent people from rendering valuable roids unusable for long periods of time. It's one of the very few persistent changes you can make to the enemy's environment in this space quake of a game.