Forums » Suggestions
@ryan: Sounds reasonable. I'm in agreement with this so long as there's enough variation between nation ships.
Regarding turret use being limited due to the current size of the player base, I don't think it would be too hampering due to the fact that without a person in the turret, the prom would still be just as deadly as it is now in 1 on 1. We're only trying to make it more powerful for group combat anyways. If you try to do a 1 v 2 without a gunner, you should have a difficult time winning in the same way that you would in any 1 v 2. I also think you might see more people willing to hop into turrets if it was actually as viable as flying a separate ship. If we get the right balance, this should be the case.
Regarding turret use being limited due to the current size of the player base, I don't think it would be too hampering due to the fact that without a person in the turret, the prom would still be just as deadly as it is now in 1 on 1. We're only trying to make it more powerful for group combat anyways. If you try to do a 1 v 2 without a gunner, you should have a difficult time winning in the same way that you would in any 1 v 2. I also think you might see more people willing to hop into turrets if it was actually as viable as flying a separate ship. If we get the right balance, this should be the case.
Hrm... that seems logical.
I have to agree with _Ghostie_. One possibility would be an 'X-1' version of the Prom, (possibly with a thinner profile, dropping the armor and the drain), but I'm not sure it would give the 'group' benefit that was mentioned. I could be a thought.
+1 the Shedu
So far, I like the A-Wing vs. X-Wing idea.
While im not the greatest prom pilot in the world, i do fly one quite often. I can... against most players (not the uber vets of course maalik, peytros, ghost etc) take on a 2v1 with a reasonable chance of success. The issue seems, that even if you add the turret, at its current level of thrust, the valk can, literally, just hit turbo and be almost unhittable (depending on its loadout of course). Im not sure how much youve flown in the turret Ghost, but aiming at anything (hell getting the target in sight for more then a fraction of a second) is damn near impossible unless its someone chasing directly after you.
I like the idea of lower speed, higher armour for the valk while a turret would be admittedly more FUN im not sure that they'll ever be actually useful in direct combat.
EDIT by speed i meant thrust.. was late in the morning
I like the idea of lower speed, higher armour for the valk while a turret would be admittedly more FUN im not sure that they'll ever be actually useful in direct combat.
EDIT by speed i meant thrust.. was late in the morning
I think the Valkyrie's speed is fine, it makes it unique. Lower thrust might be in order though.
No, actually its speed makes it a 3 port, heavily armored IBG. Gut the fucker.
ghost +1 for very big and interesting port
Dr. Lecter +1
Dr. Lecter +1
For the record, the turret we're talking about adding to the prom is not one that's currently in game. The current turrets suck. There's no reason to sit in a turret when you can be drastically more effective in a second ship. We need to create a new turret for the prom that's actually worth using.
Hmm... you say that we need something that performs a sort of defensive anti-air artillery role? Then perhaps a Flechette or Flak-type turret would be in order?
Ghost, you hit it right on the nail! I'm glad someone besides me noticed this difference... many serco I know have resorted to using the ec-109 bus as an alternative to a prom in furballs (evidence for Ghost's objections: recent fight in bractus e2)!!!
Currently, most sercos going for the lightly armored ship that can take on multiple targets go for the corvult. Having been ganked by itani in valks, several times, I can be testimony to the fact that x1s are overpowered.
Im comparing corvults to x1s because those are the best ships for fighting multiple targets available without upping standing with the opposing nation (for soon to come standing fix!)
Here are some similarities:
1: the profile: almost exactly the same. Both corvults and x1 are shaped simliarly with slim front profiles and a length of 12m... however, x1s are superior in multiway combat because of the smaller wingspan
2: turbo speed: x1 is 225 m/s and corvult is 220 m/s
3: max speed: corvult at 75 m/s, x1 at 65 m/s, corvult slightly better
4: thrusts: x1 has increased regular thrust, corvult has increased turbo thrust
5: spin torque: 7.5 for corvult and 7 for x1
At this point you may be thinking, "Hey, these two ships seem pretty evenly matched... so whats your point?" But here are the whoppers that make x1 vastly superior to corvult:
1: armor: corvult has 8900, x1 has 11600... a *25%* increase for x1s!
2: weight: corvult has 3800 kg and x1 has 3000 kg... so all those torque speeds/thrusts? *decrease the corvults by 25%!*
3: ports: the x1 handles better *and* has 3S instead of 2S!!! so think 50% increased damage per second for x1!!!
And this is compared to a ship that you can't even get unless you get your corvus standing up to +800! Imagine how it compares to SVG, which is worse then the corvult!
So there are some options.
1: Make a hacked together version of x1/proms in corvus stations, available for a price and extra high faction, with slightly decreased stats (best imo, maintains serco/itani ship differentiation). Name them something different so players dont get the willies using the other nation's ship name. Background: After ONE THOUSAND YEARS OF SEEING REMAINS OF VALKS/PROMS SOMEONE IN CORVUS FINALLY GOT AROUND TO BUYING OFF A SINGLE FIGHTER PILOT TO SELL A SHIP TO CORVUS FOR X BILLION CREDITS, DISECTING IT, AND RECONSTRUCTING WITH SOME INFERIOR STATS FOR LOTSA $$$$! (-- this is an obvious gap in gameplay/background)
AND/or
2: make valk stats reduced... particulary, since it has 3 ports and 25% more armor, make it MORE weight then corvults, with LESS room for thrusts, torque, etc... more ports = harder to handle. Also, add aforementioned turret to prom, make a special builtin turret for only 100K c extra with aforementioned properties (aka "New turret" ghost was just talking about)... still that gap in background though!!
I remember back when SCAR was around, we had more thorough furball training, with prom coordination during NW... but like others have said, it is extremely easy to get lost from group whilst dodging for dear life in a not-very-maneuverable prom! I hardly ever use proms because I end up getting ganked so much...
Just my two cents, feel free to add/edit to these ideas!
Currently, most sercos going for the lightly armored ship that can take on multiple targets go for the corvult. Having been ganked by itani in valks, several times, I can be testimony to the fact that x1s are overpowered.
Im comparing corvults to x1s because those are the best ships for fighting multiple targets available without upping standing with the opposing nation (for soon to come standing fix!)
Here are some similarities:
1: the profile: almost exactly the same. Both corvults and x1 are shaped simliarly with slim front profiles and a length of 12m... however, x1s are superior in multiway combat because of the smaller wingspan
2: turbo speed: x1 is 225 m/s and corvult is 220 m/s
3: max speed: corvult at 75 m/s, x1 at 65 m/s, corvult slightly better
4: thrusts: x1 has increased regular thrust, corvult has increased turbo thrust
5: spin torque: 7.5 for corvult and 7 for x1
At this point you may be thinking, "Hey, these two ships seem pretty evenly matched... so whats your point?" But here are the whoppers that make x1 vastly superior to corvult:
1: armor: corvult has 8900, x1 has 11600... a *25%* increase for x1s!
2: weight: corvult has 3800 kg and x1 has 3000 kg... so all those torque speeds/thrusts? *decrease the corvults by 25%!*
3: ports: the x1 handles better *and* has 3S instead of 2S!!! so think 50% increased damage per second for x1!!!
And this is compared to a ship that you can't even get unless you get your corvus standing up to +800! Imagine how it compares to SVG, which is worse then the corvult!
So there are some options.
1: Make a hacked together version of x1/proms in corvus stations, available for a price and extra high faction, with slightly decreased stats (best imo, maintains serco/itani ship differentiation). Name them something different so players dont get the willies using the other nation's ship name. Background: After ONE THOUSAND YEARS OF SEEING REMAINS OF VALKS/PROMS SOMEONE IN CORVUS FINALLY GOT AROUND TO BUYING OFF A SINGLE FIGHTER PILOT TO SELL A SHIP TO CORVUS FOR X BILLION CREDITS, DISECTING IT, AND RECONSTRUCTING WITH SOME INFERIOR STATS FOR LOTSA $$$$! (-- this is an obvious gap in gameplay/background)
AND/or
2: make valk stats reduced... particulary, since it has 3 ports and 25% more armor, make it MORE weight then corvults, with LESS room for thrusts, torque, etc... more ports = harder to handle. Also, add aforementioned turret to prom, make a special builtin turret for only 100K c extra with aforementioned properties (aka "New turret" ghost was just talking about)... still that gap in background though!!
I remember back when SCAR was around, we had more thorough furball training, with prom coordination during NW... but like others have said, it is extremely easy to get lost from group whilst dodging for dear life in a not-very-maneuverable prom! I hardly ever use proms because I end up getting ganked so much...
Just my two cents, feel free to add/edit to these ideas!
Crusader +1, awesome comparison, though some notes:
1. X1 is only 55 e/s turbo drain, that makes it perfect sector/interstellar chaser or runner. I use mostly SVG as X-1 killer. I would pilot SVG more often if not this awful powercell drain. 60 turbo drain makes it impossible to travel and exploration, and hard way from Serco territory to grey. Corvult at least sells in the center of universe. And valkyries has only 55 energy drain with 225 m/s speed.
2. Yes, 11600 is HUGE armor for light fighter, especially with such extremely low profile, little length, 3 small ports, lightest weight, at the same time very powerful thrusts. Btw valkyrie (vengeance, mk1, rune) is the lightest ship in the game, when Corvus Superlight is still heavier and extremely hard to manufacture.
1. X1 is only 55 e/s turbo drain, that makes it perfect sector/interstellar chaser or runner. I use mostly SVG as X-1 killer. I would pilot SVG more often if not this awful powercell drain. 60 turbo drain makes it impossible to travel and exploration, and hard way from Serco territory to grey. Corvult at least sells in the center of universe. And valkyries has only 55 energy drain with 225 m/s speed.
2. Yes, 11600 is HUGE armor for light fighter, especially with such extremely low profile, little length, 3 small ports, lightest weight, at the same time very powerful thrusts. Btw valkyrie (vengeance, mk1, rune) is the lightest ship in the game, when Corvus Superlight is still heavier and extremely hard to manufacture.
Peraonally, I think the valks need a nerf, currently, they are basically be best light fighter, and persuit ships in the game.
Yea I know the Greyhound is infinitesimally faster, only in a straight line, and only over great distance. Throw weapons on them both and watch it get worse, also the hound has I think about half the armor of the X1?
I wouldn't even bother upping the valk's armor, it's got well enough as it is. All I'd do is chop its turbo speed down to 215. Or alternatly 220, with a drain of 65. It simply sucks that the valk is so damn uber these days.
Yea I know the Greyhound is infinitesimally faster, only in a straight line, and only over great distance. Throw weapons on them both and watch it get worse, also the hound has I think about half the armor of the X1?
I wouldn't even bother upping the valk's armor, it's got well enough as it is. All I'd do is chop its turbo speed down to 215. Or alternatly 220, with a drain of 65. It simply sucks that the valk is so damn uber these days.
I completely agree with Ghost's assessment of the situation.
What I do not agree with is this, posted by Crusader####:
Make a hacked together version of x1/proms in corvus stations, available for a price and extra high faction, with slightly decreased stats (best imo, maintains serco/itani ship differentiation). Name them something different so players dont get the willies using the other nation's ship name.
This runs counter to Ghost's well-made point that PvP options should not be homogenized between nations.
What I do not agree with is this, posted by Crusader####:
Make a hacked together version of x1/proms in corvus stations, available for a price and extra high faction, with slightly decreased stats (best imo, maintains serco/itani ship differentiation). Name them something different so players dont get the willies using the other nation's ship name.
This runs counter to Ghost's well-made point that PvP options should not be homogenized between nations.
there is a big difference between homogenized options and balance. As long as the itani can out run their opponents they have the upper hand. No one is suggesting that the serco get an x-1 and the itani get a prom but an infi-boost SVG for the serco and maybe some sort of special rag for the itani would make the battles seem much more logical.
if you think about it logically it makes quiet a bit of sense, your enemy makes a move and you react, either you are able to offer a sufficient counter or you lose. and in this case the serco have been losing in group pvp for quiet some time.
if you think about it logically it makes quiet a bit of sense, your enemy makes a move and you react, either you are able to offer a sufficient counter or you lose. and in this case the serco have been losing in group pvp for quiet some time.
This runs counter to Ghost's well-made point that PvP options should not be homogenized between nations.
But nations need to differ.. What's the point in them then? Chat color? I agree that PvP options should not be homogenized between nations, but I won't agree with statement: "give everything to everyone". As I understand Crusaders point is to give corvus nerfed versions of Prom/valk, maybe make them different names, etc, but this won't balance PvP when one player without Itani standings will pilot nerfed valk and another player with X-1. Same with Pormetheus. SCP is SCP while it has 21k armor and 525 thrusts.. If you take off armor or thrusts or make it heavier, this ship will be everything: Wraith guardian, revenant or even ragnarok, but this won't be SCP anymore.
But if devs will nerf uber-valks a little (vengeance, X-1 or IDF), at least turbo drain.. or something like armor, etc..
this may balance PvP a bit, or at least won't give you 100% advantage.
The main advantage of fighters, especially light (e.g. the lightest fighter in the game - valkyrie) is not armor, but it's speed, agility, thrusts, spin torque, weapons, etc, why to keep them (e.g. the lightest fighter in the game - valkyrie) heavy armored at the same time?
But nations need to differ.. What's the point in them then? Chat color? I agree that PvP options should not be homogenized between nations, but I won't agree with statement: "give everything to everyone". As I understand Crusaders point is to give corvus nerfed versions of Prom/valk, maybe make them different names, etc, but this won't balance PvP when one player without Itani standings will pilot nerfed valk and another player with X-1. Same with Pormetheus. SCP is SCP while it has 21k armor and 525 thrusts.. If you take off armor or thrusts or make it heavier, this ship will be everything: Wraith guardian, revenant or even ragnarok, but this won't be SCP anymore.
But if devs will nerf uber-valks a little (vengeance, X-1 or IDF), at least turbo drain.. or something like armor, etc..
this may balance PvP a bit, or at least won't give you 100% advantage.
The main advantage of fighters, especially light (e.g. the lightest fighter in the game - valkyrie) is not armor, but it's speed, agility, thrusts, spin torque, weapons, etc, why to keep them (e.g. the lightest fighter in the game - valkyrie) heavy armored at the same time?
My suggestions
1) *** Unique ships per nation must be improved, not reduced ***
2) Valks: Slightly reduce armour and increase weight of all them. Only.
3) Proms: Make a lighter one, with slightly reduced armour/weight and increased turn ratio, AND another heavier with turret(s) as a pocket battleship. One above, able to shoot forward, another bow. Preferably cross-link them so only one active any time, or limit to 2 players in ship.
4) Turrets: Make a stabilized turret mount. Within its FoV it keeps aiming at same spot regardless ships moves. Permit "Temp-bring gunner from anywhere (or same nation)".
1) *** Unique ships per nation must be improved, not reduced ***
2) Valks: Slightly reduce armour and increase weight of all them. Only.
3) Proms: Make a lighter one, with slightly reduced armour/weight and increased turn ratio, AND another heavier with turret(s) as a pocket battleship. One above, able to shoot forward, another bow. Preferably cross-link them so only one active any time, or limit to 2 players in ship.
4) Turrets: Make a stabilized turret mount. Within its FoV it keeps aiming at same spot regardless ships moves. Permit "Temp-bring gunner from anywhere (or same nation)".
I wasn't saying give everyone everything. I was saying give, itani x1, serco scps, but also have corvus sell an extremely reduced version of these it hacked together from intact ships found on the battle field, e.g. ones whose engines were blown out (backstory). Not reduced enough to make them useless, but reduced enough to make a difference.
Alloh:
1. Maybe Unique ships should be simply more varied? I don't see point in improving them heavely, imo, you and most of VO will still die from veteran in hog or vult. Better and unique ship doesn't mean better PvP skill.
2. well, -100 armor won't change the situation. Kinda set max valk's armor 9900, because 10k armor is average for medium fighters. Turbo drain is still ridicilous little in valk.
3. -1. There's Prometheus mk3 atm, perfect light variant of Prometheus. One thing I disagree in is it's repair price.
4. What mounts with ideal aiming gunner are you speaking about? What teleport to conq stations? So you want to see bunch of individuals jumping as gunner into battle moth, parked in assaulted Pelatus station from deneb? omg. no more comments.
..don't feed this troll
1. Maybe Unique ships should be simply more varied? I don't see point in improving them heavely, imo, you and most of VO will still die from veteran in hog or vult. Better and unique ship doesn't mean better PvP skill.
2. well, -100 armor won't change the situation. Kinda set max valk's armor 9900, because 10k armor is average for medium fighters. Turbo drain is still ridicilous little in valk.
3. -1. There's Prometheus mk3 atm, perfect light variant of Prometheus. One thing I disagree in is it's repair price.
4. What mounts with ideal aiming gunner are you speaking about? What teleport to conq stations? So you want to see bunch of individuals jumping as gunner into battle moth, parked in assaulted Pelatus station from deneb? omg. no more comments.
..don't feed this troll