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So give the Prom one XL slot and lower maneuverability, give the maud 1L 1S, give both of them a 4k hull boost and leave the valk alone.
Phoenix, umm... we're enot complaining that it can't with equal pilots, but a n00b rammer vs a skilled cent pilot.
Marauder, yeah, it's not meant to fight, I haven't complained about that lacking firepower.
Marauder, yeah, it's not meant to fight, I haven't complained about that lacking firepower.
Think real life here people. a b17 (bomber) won't be able to shoot down an f14. (fighter)
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Phoe, that's dumb. ANY fighter made 50 years later will kill such a bomb with no contest. Yet any bomber made today can either outdistance or shoot down any fighter made 50 years ago. Stupid analogy.
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Rogue, the ships right now have hulls that are too similar. Either 2 more rockets or 2 tach shots make up the difference between a fighter and a bomber. I say we jack the Wraith's, the Prom's, and the Rag's firepower, energy, and hull. That way it would actually take a coordinated effort to take down a heavy bomber.
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Phoe, that's dumb. ANY fighter made 50 years later will kill such a bomb with no contest. Yet any bomber made today can either outdistance or shoot down any fighter made 50 years ago. Stupid analogy.
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Rogue, the ships right now have hulls that are too similar. Either 2 more rockets or 2 tach shots make up the difference between a fighter and a bomber. I say we jack the Wraith's, the Prom's, and the Rag's firepower, energy, and hull. That way it would actually take a coordinated effort to take down a heavy bomber.
The old "SuperFortress" style bombers were capable of holding their own against some fighters. Sure they didn't do that well without support, but they stood a fighting chance. As it stands, no trade-ship except the Marauder or Prometheus stands a chance against a fighter. (Unless they use Locust Swarms, but that's an issue for a different thread.)
"That way it would actually take a coordinated effort to take down a heavy bomber."
-I agree, the prices need to go up accordingly though.
"That way it would actually take a coordinated effort to take down a heavy bomber."
-I agree, the prices need to go up accordingly though.
just on a side-note: the b17 crews also didn't like close cover (like the RAF provided), they shot at everything in range :P
on topic:
the batteries... yes, the batteries.
is anyone using the medium or light battery? why not? because they're useless.
they are not lighter (providing an advantage of maneuverability).
also, SirCamps was right. new battery types are desperately needed. i just think that's not much of an issue.
anyway, the prom needs to be changed in some way, i second that. either up the armor, up the agility or add weapon slots (L, *not* S), else it's completely useless as a heavy bomber. but that would nerf the rag (which would be fine because nobody uses it except for nuking and mining... well, i have seen someone CAP in a rag before, and it went well. but defending a flying brick ain't funny, nosir.).
on topic:
the batteries... yes, the batteries.
is anyone using the medium or light battery? why not? because they're useless.
they are not lighter (providing an advantage of maneuverability).
also, SirCamps was right. new battery types are desperately needed. i just think that's not much of an issue.
anyway, the prom needs to be changed in some way, i second that. either up the armor, up the agility or add weapon slots (L, *not* S), else it's completely useless as a heavy bomber. but that would nerf the rag (which would be fine because nobody uses it except for nuking and mining... well, i have seen someone CAP in a rag before, and it went well. but defending a flying brick ain't funny, nosir.).
Don't forget the devs not only cut down the Prom's hull, but also it's agility.
It was as agile as the Atlas. Now it's just a ship with only 1 L and 2 S ports, meaning mostly useless, unless you're a coughnukeexploitercough.
I think when the Prom still was that good old killing machine, Valk's full power had yet been discovered.
A Prom with 24k-25k can be taken down by the current Tri-Flare Valk.
(I still don't understand why Serco's got a weird bombing ship and Itanies a fighter)
It was as agile as the Atlas. Now it's just a ship with only 1 L and 2 S ports, meaning mostly useless, unless you're a coughnukeexploitercough.
I think when the Prom still was that good old killing machine, Valk's full power had yet been discovered.
A Prom with 24k-25k can be taken down by the current Tri-Flare Valk.
(I still don't understand why Serco's got a weird bombing ship and Itanies a fighter)
Phoe, that's dumb. ANY fighter made 50 years later will kill such a bomb with no contest. Yet any bomber made today can either outdistance or shoot down any fighter made 50 years ago. Stupid analogy.
Actually, the f14 was made 30 years ago, and it's still in service today.
Actually, the f14 was made 30 years ago, and it's still in service today.
"Bombers" should have defensive capabilities that would keep fighters at bay. We're talking defensive, not offensive. Right now there are very few, if any, good defensive weapons that can be used by "bombers", and that needs to change. That's why the current Ragnarok or Prometheus is a flying target. Anything that's slow should have a lot of weapons. Anything that's fast should be weaker. As simple as it may sound, there's a lot of logic behind to it.
As far as technology goes, I still believe older fighters (read "non-specials") should be effective against newer fighters (read "Valkyries"). There are many somewhat dated fighters in the US Air Force, Navy, Army, etc. that are still being used effectively, and yet there are are no substitutes for them. The A-10 Warthog for example is still the heaviest armored military jet out there, in addition to being the best tank killer. The F-14 Tomcat still flies faster than most modern jets and has a huge capacity for air-to-air missiles. Aw heck, even the old Russian MIG-25 can outmaneuver some of our more modern fighters. Better technology doesn't necessarily mean deadlier weapons, and IMO Vendetta should reflect that.
PS: Blitz, I don't know where you got the idea that 21k credits is expensive. You sure you've been playing the same game I have?
As far as technology goes, I still believe older fighters (read "non-specials") should be effective against newer fighters (read "Valkyries"). There are many somewhat dated fighters in the US Air Force, Navy, Army, etc. that are still being used effectively, and yet there are are no substitutes for them. The A-10 Warthog for example is still the heaviest armored military jet out there, in addition to being the best tank killer. The F-14 Tomcat still flies faster than most modern jets and has a huge capacity for air-to-air missiles. Aw heck, even the old Russian MIG-25 can outmaneuver some of our more modern fighters. Better technology doesn't necessarily mean deadlier weapons, and IMO Vendetta should reflect that.
PS: Blitz, I don't know where you got the idea that 21k credits is expensive. You sure you've been playing the same game I have?
Alright Phoe, I'll give you that one. But you were comparing a prop bomber to a jet fighter. :P
The A10 is now being retired in favor of the F-35. But nevermind. Yes, I agree Arolte. Currently the only defensive weapons are mines, and you can't carry nearly enough of them to make them useful. But the A10 specialized against ground vehicles, yet was totally vulnerable to fighters.
Vendetta does reflect the fact that "better technology doesn't mean deadlier weapons," considering the fact that you could put any weapon on any craft.
But I think batteries need to be re-done. The gat would be a perfect defensive weapon if you could sustain firing them for 2 minutes or so. Light batteries need to be used exclusively on fighters, medium on fighter-bombers/gunships, and heavies on the Rags, Centuars, and Proms. And maybe you should be able to put the next larger battery on your craft, but at a maneuverability hit. I would like to see light batteries in the 200-300 range, medium batteries in the 500-800 range, and heavy batteries in the 1000 - 1500 range. Of course recharge rates and all could vary. Say, 3 variations for each. Efficient batteries/fast charge batteries could have around 100-150, yet have a wild recharge rate, which would be good for light trading ships or those with only 1 weapon.
Maybe the tri-Valk could take down a 28k prom, but realize the prom might have rammed back with that much armor, and Valk pilots would act accordingly cautious.
On the whole, I propose that instead of narrowing the spectrum of armor (6k-18k), we open up the spectrum on both armor and battery storage, I would like to see the armor of the present ships vary from the EC88's 6000 to the Ragnarok's 35000-40000. I would like to see battery caps range from a fast charge's 100 to a heavy's 1500. This would allow for the survivability of larger craft.
Perhaps we could invent a technology that places destructable armor plating out far enough from a craft that rockets explode on the armor and not do any damage? Somehow make the damage proportional to the size of the craft (other than the amount of armor).
The A10 is now being retired in favor of the F-35. But nevermind. Yes, I agree Arolte. Currently the only defensive weapons are mines, and you can't carry nearly enough of them to make them useful. But the A10 specialized against ground vehicles, yet was totally vulnerable to fighters.
Vendetta does reflect the fact that "better technology doesn't mean deadlier weapons," considering the fact that you could put any weapon on any craft.
But I think batteries need to be re-done. The gat would be a perfect defensive weapon if you could sustain firing them for 2 minutes or so. Light batteries need to be used exclusively on fighters, medium on fighter-bombers/gunships, and heavies on the Rags, Centuars, and Proms. And maybe you should be able to put the next larger battery on your craft, but at a maneuverability hit. I would like to see light batteries in the 200-300 range, medium batteries in the 500-800 range, and heavy batteries in the 1000 - 1500 range. Of course recharge rates and all could vary. Say, 3 variations for each. Efficient batteries/fast charge batteries could have around 100-150, yet have a wild recharge rate, which would be good for light trading ships or those with only 1 weapon.
Maybe the tri-Valk could take down a 28k prom, but realize the prom might have rammed back with that much armor, and Valk pilots would act accordingly cautious.
On the whole, I propose that instead of narrowing the spectrum of armor (6k-18k), we open up the spectrum on both armor and battery storage, I would like to see the armor of the present ships vary from the EC88's 6000 to the Ragnarok's 35000-40000. I would like to see battery caps range from a fast charge's 100 to a heavy's 1500. This would allow for the survivability of larger craft.
Perhaps we could invent a technology that places destructable armor plating out far enough from a craft that rockets explode on the armor and not do any damage? Somehow make the damage proportional to the size of the craft (other than the amount of armor).
I've been fairly silent lately (and have not been playing much, either). I've been watching the boards though. I'm sure my opinion isn't new to any of you, but I'm throwing it out there anyway. So here's my 2 cents on balance:
We all know that there are perceived balance issues right now. We all know that the devs know this. We all know that something will ultimately be done to have a robust and fair gaming experience.
What we seem to forget is that in a huge multiplayer universe there will be different roles that need to be filled. One of the reasons that different ships and weapons are deemed "unbalanced" is because right now there are only a few different roles to play. Basically, everyone is trying to use every ship as a fighter (sometimes unwillingly in response to a pirate attack, etc.) and is concerned that the ships are not all balanced towards this purpose.
Do the ships need to be balanced right now? Yes, a bit, for the sake of allowing different ships to be used during the Test. But it is my opinion that once the game evolves to include missions, et. all, these perceived balance issues will largely solve themselves; each ship's weakness will be countered by its unique advantage in certain missions and tasks that a fighter just couldn't accomplish.
Fantasy-land Example: Fast forward to when we have 1) a reputation system 2) sector governments/police/factions, 3) gizmos, and 4) missions. You need to run a smuggling operation, but foreign sector fighters are not allowed within a certain radius of a particular station. So you will need several ships to complete the mission: first, a stealthy/fast/light fighter to skirmish your way through a remote mercenary sector (to avoid border patrols). Then, a civilian-class ship outfitted with stealth/espionage gizmos to use within enemy territory. Once in the station, it turns out the cargo is much too large for your ship so you need to purchase a heavy long-distance freight runner (with proper credentials) to return the materials home. You arrive home, to find that you were followed. Crap! There's an enemy battle-cruiser outside with an escort fleet! Some players in station jump into their favorite load-out of fighter-class ships to dogfight the escorts. Others jump into their bombers to take down that cruiser. And so on, and so on.
Does this scenario sound like fun? I think so. Does it involve ships that would all be balanced in individual one-on-one fights? Not at all.
That's all. I'm back to lurking for a while :-)
-Jean Starwind
We all know that there are perceived balance issues right now. We all know that the devs know this. We all know that something will ultimately be done to have a robust and fair gaming experience.
What we seem to forget is that in a huge multiplayer universe there will be different roles that need to be filled. One of the reasons that different ships and weapons are deemed "unbalanced" is because right now there are only a few different roles to play. Basically, everyone is trying to use every ship as a fighter (sometimes unwillingly in response to a pirate attack, etc.) and is concerned that the ships are not all balanced towards this purpose.
Do the ships need to be balanced right now? Yes, a bit, for the sake of allowing different ships to be used during the Test. But it is my opinion that once the game evolves to include missions, et. all, these perceived balance issues will largely solve themselves; each ship's weakness will be countered by its unique advantage in certain missions and tasks that a fighter just couldn't accomplish.
Fantasy-land Example: Fast forward to when we have 1) a reputation system 2) sector governments/police/factions, 3) gizmos, and 4) missions. You need to run a smuggling operation, but foreign sector fighters are not allowed within a certain radius of a particular station. So you will need several ships to complete the mission: first, a stealthy/fast/light fighter to skirmish your way through a remote mercenary sector (to avoid border patrols). Then, a civilian-class ship outfitted with stealth/espionage gizmos to use within enemy territory. Once in the station, it turns out the cargo is much too large for your ship so you need to purchase a heavy long-distance freight runner (with proper credentials) to return the materials home. You arrive home, to find that you were followed. Crap! There's an enemy battle-cruiser outside with an escort fleet! Some players in station jump into their favorite load-out of fighter-class ships to dogfight the escorts. Others jump into their bombers to take down that cruiser. And so on, and so on.
Does this scenario sound like fun? I think so. Does it involve ships that would all be balanced in individual one-on-one fights? Not at all.
That's all. I'm back to lurking for a while :-)
-Jean Starwind
I agree with everything Slappyknappy said!
Actually, things should be kept the way devs have them when they are released. You guys are just considering weapons and ships that our out currently and aren't even thinking about new things that will be out, that will change that, and if you want everything balanced right when it comes out, it takes more time out of adding new features or fixing bugs. The only time the game should be balanced is before the final product is released and everything the game will have is in it and we can properly balance the game without having something come out the next week or two later, and then the devs have to go back and rebalance everything again. For example, you guys are complaining about rocket ramming with sunflares, and aren't even considering that the devs might have come up with defense measures like a point defense system that shoots down some missles which eliminates ramming. Please think about what will be added later on before whining about balance. Leave the devs to doing that, they have a good idea of what is to come.
Whoops, double post
No comments from anyone?
silence is the sign of agreement, or at least a sign of a lack of major disagreement.
Good point phoenix.
Good point phoenix.
agreed
Right on Phoenix! I couldn't have said it better.
Well, I was wondering why no one was flaming me as usual, so I guess I posted something good for once?
No you were just stating what I was stating a long time ago.
I said : when missions are incorperated then you would need a special licence to be able to use rockets, if you shoot them from to close, you could lose your licence. And so on. So basically I said: everything will be balanced again when the interesting RP stuff is added ;).
cheers
Only difference is I circumvented the point constantly :D
I said : when missions are incorperated then you would need a special licence to be able to use rockets, if you shoot them from to close, you could lose your licence. And so on. So basically I said: everything will be balanced again when the interesting RP stuff is added ;).
cheers
Only difference is I circumvented the point constantly :D
And Phoe didn't. :P