Heh, "I scratch your back you scratch mine".

:P

Um Rene I did join VPR for two months. :P Though it was not known to them at the time.

I think Rene meant "I watch your back and you watch mine."

Borb: "If need be I will gladly leave IA and go about my other occupations."

translation: I'm just gonna go back and be a pirate.

Borb: "I even tried to reform at one point only too be pushed back in to the old life by the ever vengeful VPRs. Not that I hold them any ill will, but still, I don't think I could really be called the badist bad guy."

Translation: I can't help myself. I tried to change, but it's all someone else's fault that I can't! Damn those sneaky VPRs. And I'm not that bad compared to someone else (relative good and evil)!!!

Smittens: "Okay, semi contrarily to what I said earlier, Borb is going to be an Lt by /guild list ONLY. He still retains only the duties of Sarge and Apex retains the duties of Hostile Lt. We're doing this so he can help recruit, one of the reasons he was hired.

Some people have had trouble understanding that our council is not especially important, so I know this'll be hard for you, but:

BORB IS NOT AN LT IN TERMS OF POSITION!!!!"

Translation: Borb may have the power of the Lieutenant, the position of the Lieutenant, but dammit! he answers to "sarge," not "LT."

My comment: You hired a BLAKish pirate to do RECRUITING for you? WHO ARE YOU TRYING TO RECRUIT?

And so another guild falls. Kudos to VPR for not going along with it. I love you guys.

Borb is [IA]? Holy crap, I was wrong about the itani afterall! Smittens! The recruiting pitch has worked!! Clearly, [IA] has what I want!!! SIGN ME UP :D

Dr. "SSL'" Lecter, Free Trader

Du-hude! It is working!! Congratulations, Smitten! The pirates are now smitten with IA!

What is this, Interlopers Anonymous?

Pirates are hardly smitten with [IA]. I had a few altercations with them tonight, and they were less than friendly. I don't mind Borb recruiting for us, simply because I know that he's helping Smittens out because one of our upstanding people is has sold his house, and is moving, and won't be back for a while.

Borb isn't recruiting pirates to our guild, but he's making an honest effort to get new players into IA, and help train them in the basics of VO.

No, we aren't teaching them how to pirate.

I think (pretty much) everyone is taking this way too far in saying that IA has gone down the tubes, and I firmly believe that IA is a far better choice than IDF, for a few reasons, which I won't mention here. I think more experienced players understand what I'm getting at.

However, I am confused as to what the [IA]-[VPR] alliance actually *does/did*. Aside from a few training battles, nothing really comes to mind.

What I actually meant was in real term expressions:

The belgian president makes sure that his best friend gets a high ranked position not because he is necessarilly the best person for the job. Nor because he has shown a lot of understanding of Belgian's institution at all. But just because he is the friend of the president...

That seems more like a dictatorship then a democracy/republic or a guild.

Now you englishspeaking sobs give me the word for that behaviour... I have been searching my buttocks off for that word.

PS borb: joining vpr on an alt is not the same as joining vpr as borb... although it does raise questions concerning why you exitted 2 months later

Favoritism, Rene?

I think Celkan just hit the nail on the head. AKA political connections. Smittens *wants* Borb in, regardless of the damage it causes to the guild and its allies. After all, look at this thread as evidence to it. Borb hasn't changed--he said he'd go back to pirating if they were to ask him to leave. So why is he in IA?

Hehe, you where not around when I was trying to go straight DS4 so you really can't comment one way or the other. On one hand I could be lieing, on the other they could, you where not there so you really don't know which brings me to my next question.

I think VPR would need some grounds to suspend the Alliance. As it is they have aligations that I am evil and aligations that I am turning IA in to my own privet pirate guild I will then use to crush BLAK and make a massive name for my self. How ever they lack proof of any kind.

Now I would think a disision of this kind would need some thing other then the emotions of a few people I killed some time ago when things where differnt to back it up.

Also I would like to see a document or documents that state the goals and the rules of the IA-VPR Alliance. As it is all I can see it that it was verbal meaning they again have no real grounds to end it due there being no rules on which to end it.

From http://vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/7/10857

"Oh a gang, fun. Just stay outta Gray or you'll have BLAK to deal with, and stay outta Itani space or you'll have me and IA to deal with. :D"

I guess Borb made his point....

/maso

Well first off every one knows BLAK likes to think gray is theirs so any attempts there would be met with aggression. And to the second part.

They where talking about locking down sectors of their choosing. This would inhibit the free trade IA strives to protect. Therefor if this was done in Itani space in doing my job as a leader of IA you can bet I would strongly I would oppose this. As I would hope VPR would, or have you guys no longer the time to do your job being to focused on destroying old alliances with mad allegations?

"Hehe, you where not around when I was trying to go straight DS4 so you really can't comment one way or the other. On the one hand I could be lying..."

Yes, I can comment. You're either a liar or a pirate that can't kick the habit. I am inclined to believe the latter.

Hehe, like I've said prove it. Use all the information you know about me having known me for such a looking time. After all you've been in-game for soooo vary long you could form a good opinion on me based on the facts you know about me.

You may be able to comment as could any one, but the crux of the matter is wither or not your comments are grounded in fact or fiction.

camps, you dont have a lot of room to discuss pirates and reforms.

The only difference between you having DS4/Camps/SF1 and Borb changing his motivations is that in alpha we could crank out a new character, dumps some cash on him and go without worrying about licenses when we wanted to change our play style.

As to VPR keeping borb from "going straight" i can believe that. Some of the VPR pilots are assinine about refusing to believe somone can change his/her goals. I have had to have a long chat with several of them because they got into a free for all in B-8 around the capships and I killed them as they were attacking serco pirates who were helping defend the serco capship. They tried to claim i was helping the pirates, in reality i was helping our capship, but some of them arent bright enough to figure out the difference on thier own.

If i were a pirate that tried to change my ways and every time i moved some prick with a VPR tag was blowing up my ship because of what i had done in the past it wouldn't take me long to say "screw it" and go back to just killing them.

Lastly BORB is not a pirate. He is most definitely a mercenary and one who does his best to help the vendetta game community at large. He got his start in the SAF doing CtC, when the itani were getting creamed and outnumbered he crated an itani character to help them out. Once the CtC was evened out he did several other jobs, changing guilds to help out friends, associates and even former enemies when they were in a jam. If IA wants him to help recruit new players and teach them the basics of vendetta combat and how to fly, more power to IA for helping out new players.

oog: Borb may be a great guy, we're not arguing that.

ig: However, the facts are that he infiltrated the VPR guild with the intent of passing along vital information to the BLAK guild, our sworn enemies. This alone is enough to warrant keeping him on the VPR KOS list.

"As to VPR keeping borb from "going straight" i can believe that."

I'm sorry, but this is total donkey-doo. You are responsible for your own actions... all this talk of "the devil made me do it" is just another way to avoid personal responsibility. It's also rediculous to make the leap from "these armed people are out to get me" to "therefore I'm going to go kill some defenseless traders."

Smittens, I also strongly encourage you to think about the wisdom (or lack thereof) of putting a former enemy in a leadership position of your guild without the rest of your guild's consent. Borb is known for infiltration and being a double-agent. Now you're going to have him recruiting for you? IA as we know it is over. Sad to see a noble guild fall so far.

"However, I am confused as to what the [IA]-[VPR] alliance actually *does/did*. Aside from a few training battles, nothing really comes to mind."

Hmm, fight alongside each other against a common enemy? Watch each other's backs? Share information on pirates? The Alliance was what you made of it.

spellcast: you are missing the point here. The point really is that the guy who plays Borb II and Borb the Second is really the same physical person. So: As Borb the Second he should be our ally and as Borb II our enemy. Well, that's odd. Ideally, people completely alter the behaviour when using different characters. And they do not use the information gained while being character A for the advancement of character B and vice versa. However, the world is not ideal. The Viper Guild is currently not in, let's put it this way, friendly terms with BLAK. Having a BLAK member in the ranks of our allies therefore represents a problem in particular in view of the intelligence exchange that has taken place.

And Spellcast: (i) It is not the case that we pursue a "once a target, always a target" policy. In fact, we have kept removing ppl from our internal watch lists whenever things appear to be settled. (ii) BLAK keeps up hostilities, so we do the same. (iii) Borb II is a member of BLAK and, therefore, will be treated like any other BLAK.

And lastly,
"If i were a pirate that tried to change my ways and every time i moved some prick with a VPR tag was blowing up my ship because of what i had done in the past it wouldn't take me long to say "screw it" and go back to just killing them."

If *I* were pirate that wants to leave that business, the first thing for me to do would be to leave the (pirate) guild I am member of to clearly express my intentions. Borb did nothing like that.

/maso

Whoa whoa whoa, let's get one thing straight here, Lahmi was no "spy," Lahmi was me going underground for the time being.

While I will admit I may have passed some information from VPR along to BLAK, I did nothing that would or did cause any harm to VPR during my stay there. Acutely I'm sure if you ask the VPRs that fought with me and the traders I helped save they would say Lahmi was a great example of the a VPR should be.

If I had wanted to spy using Lahmi I would have never come out with my log. I would have kept Lahmi in VPR, lets face it Lahmi was a vary active member in VPR and it was just a matter of time till he made council, then should I have been spying/trying to destroy VPR I would have really ben able to do it.

On that same note, the main reason I can see for VPR to suspend the alliance, is fear of me spying and or destroying IA. Now as I have just presented why would I have exposed Lahmi when as you all could see he was in an even better position then Borb to hurt VPR and possibly IA.

So why would I expose him only to allegedly come back as Borb and try to take I'll down. I had no way of knowing Smit would ask me to do the job. All the confrontation here which was too be expected has put my position in danger. Now then I think we can all a agree I am good at being some thing I am not.

And if need be I would make a great spy. Now then if I am so great why would I mess things up like this? And then even if I was trying to kill IA and VPR why would I be trying to keep them together? Also I think we can agree at this point VPR is the stronger of the two guilds, why would I have gone for the weaker one when I had the stronger one right where I wanted it?

I could have easily gotten in to IA after I took out VPR with Lahmi had I wanted, how ever after Lahmi should I want to get into VPR it will be vary hard. So as I said, come up with some proof that can refute these facts. Or with draw the baseless accusations you have put upon me.

Edit: Also Maso you may like to note that BLAK is not a pirate guild. Read our guild description, we happen to have pirates in the guild but it is not a pirate guild. Maybe your "intel" you prize so highly needs updating.

I'm going to speak in Borb's defense here--I have had many honorable dealings with him as well as the majority of BLAK's ranks. This is not, however, to say I have not been pirated or had it attempted on me before; BLAK was just not the group to do it.

I can't personally think of a better person for IA to hire than Borb--he's got a good 130-190 PKs on each of his alts (that I know of) which adds up to at least the 450-500 range. I only know one other person qualified for the job they hired him for that is an Itani, and I don't know his current guild affiliation if any.

Really, the Vipers are overreacting to something that may end up being beneficial for BOTH guilds. How, you ask? If Borb ends up teaching enough IA members excellent flight skills, then the IA is a better group to have fighting alongside the Vipers--they won't need backup, or at least less of it.

I also doubt anyone stopped to think that maybe Borb was teaching these players so he would have more challenging opponents to fight against if/when he goes BAK2BLAK™. Easy kills aren't exactly the most fun way to spend PvP-time; I know this even though I don't do a lot of PvP.

/me writes a note self: Keep an eye on Celkan, she knows far to much.