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Borb: "While I will admit I may have passed some information from VPR along to BLAK, I did nothing that would or did cause any harm to VPR during my stay there."
Hey, I may have sold US secrets to the Chinese, but I justify it by saying that none of it actually *harmed* the US while I was on the US's side...
Borb: "Now then I think we can all a agree I am good at being some thing I am not."
So basically, you're not trustworthy. Why should we trust you on this one?
Celkan, let's not get into honorable/dishonorable dealings. BLAK is largely populated by pirates, and VPR and IA exist to hunt pirates. Having a BLAK member join one of them endangers their mission.
If Borb was serious about RPing, he would have kept all alternate chars secret and treated them separately. But that didn't happen, so as Maso noted, it's the same person working for and against the guild.
Hey, I may have sold US secrets to the Chinese, but I justify it by saying that none of it actually *harmed* the US while I was on the US's side...
Borb: "Now then I think we can all a agree I am good at being some thing I am not."
So basically, you're not trustworthy. Why should we trust you on this one?
Celkan, let's not get into honorable/dishonorable dealings. BLAK is largely populated by pirates, and VPR and IA exist to hunt pirates. Having a BLAK member join one of them endangers their mission.
If Borb was serious about RPing, he would have kept all alternate chars secret and treated them separately. But that didn't happen, so as Maso noted, it's the same person working for and against the guild.
Well I've been not replying for a while, so this is gonna go far back:
Rene: I am not saying we don't need the alliance. It's been great fun fighting mutual enemies with you at our sides. This is why the negotiations I hope will still continue. However IA can not be reliant on it. Also I forgot a fifth qualification for Borb, and its completely understandable that my appointing of him would be suspicious without my listing of it: I wanted someone who could be and was online a lot.
DS4 or whoever said I wanted to put someone I could control in a big position: Hey everyone. Guess who Heywood Jerome is. MY COUSIN. I can call him up any time I want and say "Get on VO". SO why wouldn't I make him Sarge? (And he's council cause he was on a lot and we haven't had our council changed in a while, obviously)
VPR and VO in General: For all your role playing in character you fail to see that its ROLE playing. If I play Smittens and trade vital inforomation with you then make and start using a pirate character, I am NOT going to use the information I learned as Smittens on this pirate. Because the pirate is a ROLE of a different person. I'm sure this is why so many people have secret alts because they know that once its exposed no one will trust that they keep them seperate.
Phaserlight: I am not putting an enemy in a leadership position. See above though I guess the context can be slightly different.
Spellcast and Celkan: THANK YOU
And now that I think about it I'm starting to wonder what exactly VPR's problem is with this. Are you worried about us being compromised? Thank you, but this decision wasn't made with a total lack of security. Are you worried that Borb is gonna make IA Pirates? I'm not even gonna bother trying to defend that one.
Rene: I am not saying we don't need the alliance. It's been great fun fighting mutual enemies with you at our sides. This is why the negotiations I hope will still continue. However IA can not be reliant on it. Also I forgot a fifth qualification for Borb, and its completely understandable that my appointing of him would be suspicious without my listing of it: I wanted someone who could be and was online a lot.
DS4 or whoever said I wanted to put someone I could control in a big position: Hey everyone. Guess who Heywood Jerome is. MY COUSIN. I can call him up any time I want and say "Get on VO". SO why wouldn't I make him Sarge? (And he's council cause he was on a lot and we haven't had our council changed in a while, obviously)
VPR and VO in General: For all your role playing in character you fail to see that its ROLE playing. If I play Smittens and trade vital inforomation with you then make and start using a pirate character, I am NOT going to use the information I learned as Smittens on this pirate. Because the pirate is a ROLE of a different person. I'm sure this is why so many people have secret alts because they know that once its exposed no one will trust that they keep them seperate.
Phaserlight: I am not putting an enemy in a leadership position. See above though I guess the context can be slightly different.
Spellcast and Celkan: THANK YOU
And now that I think about it I'm starting to wonder what exactly VPR's problem is with this. Are you worried about us being compromised? Thank you, but this decision wasn't made with a total lack of security. Are you worried that Borb is gonna make IA Pirates? I'm not even gonna bother trying to defend that one.
I think he was serious about roleplaying, and I think he handled his alts in the most appropriate manner possible given his method of using them.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/7/10854
I think that considering each of your "alts" as your main-use character just under a different disguise is a wonderful use (and yes, manipulation) of the one-guild-per-character limitation placed on VO players. Borb leveled all the alts that I know of to similar levels; given the actual levels he can't abuse the newbie-gets-killed-then-seeks-revenge-in-a-higher-leveled-character possibility. Who says he can't "get fake papers and IDs"? Who says he can't "infiltrate a guild with an alt"?
Only those who do not truely appreciate the concept of roleplay say those sorts of things. A roleplayer fits their character into a role, and plays that role. If Borb's role was to be an undercover agent, then it is perfectly logical and reasonable that he did what he did with his alts.
As I say in my response to the thread that I linked above, I personally don't have alts because I a) don't want to take the time to level them and b) don't need alts. I'm about 400 standing points away from being admired or better with all factions, 3 ships and 1 combat license away from having all of the ships, and one mining license away from having all the standard mining beams. After that, I'll spend my time collecting badges like the Prospecting badge and the 3rd mentor badge.
Edit: Heh, you're welcome Smittens. :P
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/7/10854
I think that considering each of your "alts" as your main-use character just under a different disguise is a wonderful use (and yes, manipulation) of the one-guild-per-character limitation placed on VO players. Borb leveled all the alts that I know of to similar levels; given the actual levels he can't abuse the newbie-gets-killed-then-seeks-revenge-in-a-higher-leveled-character possibility. Who says he can't "get fake papers and IDs"? Who says he can't "infiltrate a guild with an alt"?
Only those who do not truely appreciate the concept of roleplay say those sorts of things. A roleplayer fits their character into a role, and plays that role. If Borb's role was to be an undercover agent, then it is perfectly logical and reasonable that he did what he did with his alts.
As I say in my response to the thread that I linked above, I personally don't have alts because I a) don't want to take the time to level them and b) don't need alts. I'm about 400 standing points away from being admired or better with all factions, 3 ships and 1 combat license away from having all of the ships, and one mining license away from having all the standard mining beams. After that, I'll spend my time collecting badges like the Prospecting badge and the 3rd mentor badge.
Edit: Heh, you're welcome Smittens. :P
Smittens, it's an issue of trust. SirCamps is an outside observer... it just looks bad to everyone to have a known pirate/spy as your ally's lieutenant/recruiter/sarge whatever when you're an anti-pirate guild.
If the Vipers are known for anything, it's sticking to their guns.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/7/10780
This thread alone is enough to prove that Lahmi was a spy, not a true alt. Aside from repeatedly bashing the VPRs, Borb himself says at the end that Lahmi = Borb.
VPRs are good at what they do, and do not need a former pirate to train them. I can take down a triflare valk jock twice my level 1v1 in my trusty SVG as many pirates in B8 can attest, and I will be happy to prove it to anyone looking for a challenge. Even though some among our ranks are more experienced than others we are training everyone to become honorable warriors that defend those in need. BLAK trains people how to hunt down defenseless traders, and how to lay claim to a sector indiscriminately shooting anyone who passes by. I'd also like to point out that BLAK is not as bad-ass as Borb would have everyone believe... I've seen them run from VPRs in B8 many times.
Hiring a pirate/mercenary with a shady past to train or to recruit does not match the charter of the VPR guild http://www.viperguild.com/cgi/simpleforum_pro.cgi?fid=12&topic_id=1101404328 we will continue to make grey space safer for traders without compromising our security, trust, or our KOS list. Time will tell if IA made a wise decision or not.
If the Vipers are known for anything, it's sticking to their guns.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/7/10780
This thread alone is enough to prove that Lahmi was a spy, not a true alt. Aside from repeatedly bashing the VPRs, Borb himself says at the end that Lahmi = Borb.
VPRs are good at what they do, and do not need a former pirate to train them. I can take down a triflare valk jock twice my level 1v1 in my trusty SVG as many pirates in B8 can attest, and I will be happy to prove it to anyone looking for a challenge. Even though some among our ranks are more experienced than others we are training everyone to become honorable warriors that defend those in need. BLAK trains people how to hunt down defenseless traders, and how to lay claim to a sector indiscriminately shooting anyone who passes by. I'd also like to point out that BLAK is not as bad-ass as Borb would have everyone believe... I've seen them run from VPRs in B8 many times.
Hiring a pirate/mercenary with a shady past to train or to recruit does not match the charter of the VPR guild http://www.viperguild.com/cgi/simpleforum_pro.cgi?fid=12&topic_id=1101404328 we will continue to make grey space safer for traders without compromising our security, trust, or our KOS list. Time will tell if IA made a wise decision or not.
Celkan,
So if I roleplay on Renegade the nice dude and join guild X. Then make a char as Red Eyes Charlie that is a nasty pirate and join guild Y. And then give inside information from X to Y. How am I then roleplaying? I see it more as abusing trust given to you to help out people that trust you on another... It would be even worse if the flux of information went also in th eother direction since at that moment blak should be a bit disgruntled as well (although I doubt that they would really care, unless it was some important information).
If you have alternate chars then
a) keep them completely seperate
b) keep them completely seperate
c) keep them completely seperate
if you can't do either, then roleplaying is not for you. And you are NOT doing a good job. Since that is exactly the hardest part in roleplaying. Playing the intended role without any influence.
Naturally if you can live a doublelife (which is impossible in this game)... aka goody do gooder in the day and dirty pirate at night then that would be something else. But borb and Lahmi should have never been associated with each other, since it only causes problems, and im sure that you remember an unfortunate non disclosed occurence of exactly a same kind of problem with you which we are not going to disclose in here (just put it in to illustrate my point and reason... not to drag old cows from out of the ditch).
PS: I don't make alternate chars just because I suck at roleplaying because I can't keep myself to keeping them seperate.
PPS: maybe this is a cue to add a small 1 guild for 1 account limitation. But I don't know if the devs are primarilly searching for a guild vs guild orientation or a character orientation. But if it is th eformer, i suggest the 1 account, 1 guild theoreme.
So if I roleplay on Renegade the nice dude and join guild X. Then make a char as Red Eyes Charlie that is a nasty pirate and join guild Y. And then give inside information from X to Y. How am I then roleplaying? I see it more as abusing trust given to you to help out people that trust you on another... It would be even worse if the flux of information went also in th eother direction since at that moment blak should be a bit disgruntled as well (although I doubt that they would really care, unless it was some important information).
If you have alternate chars then
a) keep them completely seperate
b) keep them completely seperate
c) keep them completely seperate
if you can't do either, then roleplaying is not for you. And you are NOT doing a good job. Since that is exactly the hardest part in roleplaying. Playing the intended role without any influence.
Naturally if you can live a doublelife (which is impossible in this game)... aka goody do gooder in the day and dirty pirate at night then that would be something else. But borb and Lahmi should have never been associated with each other, since it only causes problems, and im sure that you remember an unfortunate non disclosed occurence of exactly a same kind of problem with you which we are not going to disclose in here (just put it in to illustrate my point and reason... not to drag old cows from out of the ditch).
PS: I don't make alternate chars just because I suck at roleplaying because I can't keep myself to keeping them seperate.
PPS: maybe this is a cue to add a small 1 guild for 1 account limitation. But I don't know if the devs are primarilly searching for a guild vs guild orientation or a character orientation. But if it is th eformer, i suggest the 1 account, 1 guild theoreme.
I think of alts as a fake identity. Every guild wants spies in the other guys house. I think some of you are just a little peaved that we're so much better at it.
Ok first off, when I said I did give out stuff from VPR I was referring to chat logs I thought were funny. This is comply incomparable to the US or Chinese. Like I said nothing I said or did caused any harm to VPR.
On to RP, I think I do a good job of RP with my alts. When I RP, I keep all of my alts as one person. Personally I never understood people who would make other alts to hid behind. I have worked hard to get the name I have and I see no reason to hid out on another alt.
Lahmi was RP in it's purist form as can be seen in my logs. To say Lahmi was a spy is completely untrue. He was an underground me. At the time and to this day I feel that the last place any would have looked was in an anti-pirate guild. And it worked.
Now I really don't think any of you RPers, who have many alts and keep them separate can tell me that you don't take information gained on one alt to the other. It's impossible, I don't care how good of an RPer you think you are. That is why I never make pretenses that I am not me. Unlike you pure "RPers" I like to have this thing called honesty.
Hehe, Phaserlight was that you I saw yesterday getting pwned by tumble in a TPG Atlas?
In the absence of being able bribe nations, buying goods from any nation on the black market, and having false papers, my alts are needed for me to RP properly as my current role. I'm sure once we get nationless nations and the other things I have outlined above I will be the first person to get rid of my alts.
On to RP, I think I do a good job of RP with my alts. When I RP, I keep all of my alts as one person. Personally I never understood people who would make other alts to hid behind. I have worked hard to get the name I have and I see no reason to hid out on another alt.
Lahmi was RP in it's purist form as can be seen in my logs. To say Lahmi was a spy is completely untrue. He was an underground me. At the time and to this day I feel that the last place any would have looked was in an anti-pirate guild. And it worked.
Now I really don't think any of you RPers, who have many alts and keep them separate can tell me that you don't take information gained on one alt to the other. It's impossible, I don't care how good of an RPer you think you are. That is why I never make pretenses that I am not me. Unlike you pure "RPers" I like to have this thing called honesty.
Hehe, Phaserlight was that you I saw yesterday getting pwned by tumble in a TPG Atlas?
In the absence of being able bribe nations, buying goods from any nation on the black market, and having false papers, my alts are needed for me to RP properly as my current role. I'm sure once we get nationless nations and the other things I have outlined above I will be the first person to get rid of my alts.
"So if I roleplay on Renegade the nice dude and join guild X. Then make a char as Red Eyes Charlie that is a nasty pirate and join guild Y. And then give inside information from X to Y. How am I then roleplaying? "
You're roleplaying as a spy, which is just a different role.
Phaserlight, except in your last sentence, someone who hasn't read the rest of this topic would think that VPR took in Borb:
"VPRs are good at what they do, and do not need a former pirate to train them."
"Hiring a pirate/mercenary with a shady past to train or to recruit does not match the charter of the VPR guild"
Its nice that you guys have a charter, I'm all for orginization, but IA has a constitution which, believe it or not, does not state "All members of IA must follow an allies charter"
You're roleplaying as a spy, which is just a different role.
Phaserlight, except in your last sentence, someone who hasn't read the rest of this topic would think that VPR took in Borb:
"VPRs are good at what they do, and do not need a former pirate to train them."
"Hiring a pirate/mercenary with a shady past to train or to recruit does not match the charter of the VPR guild"
Its nice that you guys have a charter, I'm all for orginization, but IA has a constitution which, believe it or not, does not state "All members of IA must follow an allies charter"
Phaserlight:
"http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/7/10780
This thread alone is enough to prove that Lahmi was a spy, not a true alt. Aside from repeatedly bashing the VPRs, Borb himself says at the end that Lahmi = Borb."
Um, no it isn't...
being critical of one's guild isn't seditious. And it was quite clear, if you had READ that log, that Borb was roleplaying a REAL change of heart.
Now, had you guys responded with some modicum of civility, Lahmi probably STILL would be fighting for the VPR's.
The VPR's seem to miss this, because they think that there's some
penultimate goal to the VPR-BLAK war. You think an advantage can be gained, etc... We on the other hand, just enjoy the fights, and I was as happy fighting against Lahmi (As Chimaera), as I would be fighting any other player.
Oh, and Borb didn't need to spy on the VPR's, I've been spying on them for months.
For example:
ATTENTION: IA VPR alliance suspended until further notice feel free to treat them like any other guild out there. Borb is KOS in any of his incarnations. IF IA attacks you in support of Borb they lose their right, they already have given up their guild to Borb. it seems he took them over:
=====
From: borbii@gmail.com
Subject: VPR/IA
Date: July 8, 2005 11:28:37 AM GMT-03:00
To: m.duncan@viperguild.com
Reply-To: borbii@gmail.com
You wanted to talk with one of the officers of IA? I'm the they call
the Sarge, I I'm the number 3 guy in IA and have taken LeberMacs
place. And seeing as MGI is gone, and Apex is on vacation, and Smit is
almost impossible to get ahold of (Trust me I know) I think your stuck
with me. So what's on your mind.
Borb.
======
My response was clear. Until their commander gets in touch or any of the LT. clarify the situation. There will be no negotiation with pirates that infiltrated IA. IA fell to BLAK, its what they wanted all along.
We do not need anyone to fight our war, we never have and never will. When the alliance was forged it made sense, BLAK was strong. Now times are different, BLAK is insignificant and we can take care of things. IA has never helped much in a long time anyway.
I am still working out things with IA leaders, until then:
- BORB IS KOS
- IA Alliance is suspended: treat them friendly if they do, shoot back if they shoot. Otherwise just ignore they exist in a neutral way. We do not have business with traitors.
Post: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/7/10849#126413
_________________
M. Duncan
Lieutenant
10/13/13/11/9
from the VPR forums.
So leave Borb alone, he's clean and did a marvelous job.
"http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/7/10780
This thread alone is enough to prove that Lahmi was a spy, not a true alt. Aside from repeatedly bashing the VPRs, Borb himself says at the end that Lahmi = Borb."
Um, no it isn't...
being critical of one's guild isn't seditious. And it was quite clear, if you had READ that log, that Borb was roleplaying a REAL change of heart.
Now, had you guys responded with some modicum of civility, Lahmi probably STILL would be fighting for the VPR's.
The VPR's seem to miss this, because they think that there's some
penultimate goal to the VPR-BLAK war. You think an advantage can be gained, etc... We on the other hand, just enjoy the fights, and I was as happy fighting against Lahmi (As Chimaera), as I would be fighting any other player.
Oh, and Borb didn't need to spy on the VPR's, I've been spying on them for months.
For example:
ATTENTION: IA VPR alliance suspended until further notice feel free to treat them like any other guild out there. Borb is KOS in any of his incarnations. IF IA attacks you in support of Borb they lose their right, they already have given up their guild to Borb. it seems he took them over:
=====
From: borbii@gmail.com
Subject: VPR/IA
Date: July 8, 2005 11:28:37 AM GMT-03:00
To: m.duncan@viperguild.com
Reply-To: borbii@gmail.com
You wanted to talk with one of the officers of IA? I'm the they call
the Sarge, I I'm the number 3 guy in IA and have taken LeberMacs
place. And seeing as MGI is gone, and Apex is on vacation, and Smit is
almost impossible to get ahold of (Trust me I know) I think your stuck
with me. So what's on your mind.
Borb.
======
My response was clear. Until their commander gets in touch or any of the LT. clarify the situation. There will be no negotiation with pirates that infiltrated IA. IA fell to BLAK, its what they wanted all along.
We do not need anyone to fight our war, we never have and never will. When the alliance was forged it made sense, BLAK was strong. Now times are different, BLAK is insignificant and we can take care of things. IA has never helped much in a long time anyway.
I am still working out things with IA leaders, until then:
- BORB IS KOS
- IA Alliance is suspended: treat them friendly if they do, shoot back if they shoot. Otherwise just ignore they exist in a neutral way. We do not have business with traitors.
Post: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/7/10849#126413
_________________
M. Duncan
Lieutenant
10/13/13/11/9
from the VPR forums.
So leave Borb alone, he's clean and did a marvelous job.
I like the part of the VPR charter that says "bring peace and justice to the universe " now I donno bout y'all but ending an alliance with long times friends on little to no proof of anything is kinda not walk'in the talk.
Edit: You pwn Shape.
Edit: You pwn Shape.
Hehe, Phaserlight was that you I saw yesterday getting pwned by tumble in a TPG Atlas?
Yep, right before I came back and made swiss cheese out of his Valk Vengeance with dual rails.
But I'm not making any claims about "pownage" skills, only that I can hold my own... you see even though you win some and you lose some, Vipers always stick together. We work as a team.
You seem to think you're the best thing since sliced bread, calling the Vipers "worms" and the IA "sad." Well if you expect people to learn from you I'd highly recommend losing the condescending attitude. Also, someone's gotta stand up to you ig and damned if it's not gonna be the Vipers.
Edit: Shape, I did read it. Thouroughly. In character Lahmi says: "It's Borb, we're back." Borb himself admits Lahmi and Borb are the same character.
...and somehow, hearing Borb did a great job from the Commander of the BLAK guild isn't that reassuring.
Yep, right before I came back and made swiss cheese out of his Valk Vengeance with dual rails.
But I'm not making any claims about "pownage" skills, only that I can hold my own... you see even though you win some and you lose some, Vipers always stick together. We work as a team.
You seem to think you're the best thing since sliced bread, calling the Vipers "worms" and the IA "sad." Well if you expect people to learn from you I'd highly recommend losing the condescending attitude. Also, someone's gotta stand up to you ig and damned if it's not gonna be the Vipers.
Edit: Shape, I did read it. Thouroughly. In character Lahmi says: "It's Borb, we're back." Borb himself admits Lahmi and Borb are the same character.
...and somehow, hearing Borb did a great job from the Commander of the BLAK guild isn't that reassuring.
Um, phaser, I think he was referring to me not being a spy, not to me and Lahmi being two different people.
"Yep, right before I came back and made swiss cheese out of his Valk Vengeance with dual rails."
Never happened. You were too busy running away. The only kill you got was when UPN helped you kill my Atlas(at: Sat Jul 9 21:44:03 2005 GMT), otherwise you got pwned and ran off like a sissy. I have the logs that prove it. I've also never flown a Vengence, the only Valk I ever fly is an IDF Vigilant.
Lying little Viper, go to your room in the Harem.
Never happened. You were too busy running away. The only kill you got was when UPN helped you kill my Atlas(at: Sat Jul 9 21:44:03 2005 GMT), otherwise you got pwned and ran off like a sissy. I have the logs that prove it. I've also never flown a Vengence, the only Valk I ever fly is an IDF Vigilant.
Lying little Viper, go to your room in the Harem.
Heh guys, keep the smacktalk for in game. :P
Ok everyone,
VPR has made the decision to suspend this alliance. Comments from people outside IA and VPR considering this issue are point- and meaningless to me as they should be to every other Viper and IA. Honestly, I think the whole thing shouldn't have been posted here anyway. That is a fault on our side which I have to admit. Smittens, you are however wrong if you have the feeling that we try to impose certain things on you. The whole thing is pretty simple: we are uncomfortable with the recent developements and, as a matter of fact, we have the right to losen ties to IA as long as this, let's call it problem, continues to exist. It is up to no one here to judge about the justification of this step.
@Shape: Do you start bullshitting around again? Your comments are just off-topic. Lahmi left by himself and there are things even you don't know about which are relevant.
@Borb: Your comments keep making it harder for me to take you serious anymore. You appear to be quite familiar with the art of contradicting yourself. Chapeau!
FM please lock this thread.
VPR has made the decision to suspend this alliance. Comments from people outside IA and VPR considering this issue are point- and meaningless to me as they should be to every other Viper and IA. Honestly, I think the whole thing shouldn't have been posted here anyway. That is a fault on our side which I have to admit. Smittens, you are however wrong if you have the feeling that we try to impose certain things on you. The whole thing is pretty simple: we are uncomfortable with the recent developements and, as a matter of fact, we have the right to losen ties to IA as long as this, let's call it problem, continues to exist. It is up to no one here to judge about the justification of this step.
@Shape: Do you start bullshitting around again? Your comments are just off-topic. Lahmi left by himself and there are things even you don't know about which are relevant.
@Borb: Your comments keep making it harder for me to take you serious anymore. You appear to be quite familiar with the art of contradicting yourself. Chapeau!
FM please lock this thread.