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Hornblower, Serco takes the stations periodically for a few hours at the most and SKV takes them back. I wouldn't really say that will stop them from shooting at you, since their dislike of TGFT seems to surpass the percieved threat from Serco Nationalists.
Maybe they'll return to being an ultra-nationalist guild
Yeah right, lol.
Yeah right, lol.
Because TGFT has a great track record of getting along with ultra-nationalist guilds.
Oh wait, they don't!!!!!!
Oh wait, they don't!!!!!!
SKV no longer has a monopoly on station access.
That's not new at all. Boda Shandis would often attack stations solo.
More to the point, still no station access for you. Too bad for you that TGFT burnt its bridge with Serco nationalists a long time ago - so much for "diplomacy."
That's not new at all. Boda Shandis would often attack stations solo.
More to the point, still no station access for you. Too bad for you that TGFT burnt its bridge with Serco nationalists a long time ago - so much for "diplomacy."
What diplomacy?
They turned down our generous offers for unconditional surrender and now they just keep whining.
SKV has never stopped fighting serco military. From time to time our millennia long enemies, as in any war, do take control of some stations for a short time, we take them back.
They turned down our generous offers for unconditional surrender and now they just keep whining.
SKV has never stopped fighting serco military. From time to time our millennia long enemies, as in any war, do take control of some stations for a short time, we take them back.
Because TGFT has a great track record of getting along with ultra-nationalist guilds.
My understanding is TGFT tends to gets along with everyone so long as they don't interrupt free trade. They have struggled with nationalist groups because the nationalist groups demand TGFT not allow "free trade" to the other nation(s) and make shallow judgements based on faction standing rather than behavior.
My understanding is TGFT tends to gets along with everyone so long as they don't interrupt free trade. They have struggled with nationalist groups because the nationalist groups demand TGFT not allow "free trade" to the other nation(s) and make shallow judgements based on faction standing rather than behavior.
By the way Bojan, nice move admitting a known Espionage alt into SKV. The fact that you can't afford me alt separation but somehow afford it to him just continues to show you've lost it (not that further proof was necessary at this point).
And forum warrior greenwall strikes again.
TGFT tends to use Machiavellian diplomacy, blabber about 'free trade' and spy on everyone, as Ecka said:
We will use any trick the devs allow us to get one over on the rest of you. Shove your ethics.
Do we need to say more?
TGFT tends to use Machiavellian diplomacy, blabber about 'free trade' and spy on everyone, as Ecka said:
We will use any trick the devs allow us to get one over on the rest of you. Shove your ethics.
Do we need to say more?
Bojan: Says a lie.
Greenwall: Says a truth.
Bojan: Says a lie.
and ever on and on it goes....
Carry on, professor, carry on!
Greenwall: Says a truth.
Bojan: Says a lie.
and ever on and on it goes....
Carry on, professor, carry on!
You got it the wrong way around wally, can you back up what you say with links to proof?
No, Bojan doesn't need to, we ALL saw it.
No, Bojan doesn't need to, we ALL saw it.
Bojan lies raaaar
To date, Bojan has supported just about everything i've seen with evidence and rational argument.
I've yet to see Greenwall show that consistency.
I'm reminded of the quote, "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn’t value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?"
Trying to make a logical argument to Greenwall and Hornblower may, indeed, be pointless.
I've yet to see Greenwall show that consistency.
I'm reminded of the quote, "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn’t value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?"
Trying to make a logical argument to Greenwall and Hornblower may, indeed, be pointless.
It's only pointless if you can't acknowledge the facts, which, consequently, Bojan cannot / will not do. In your blind support of him, YT, I can only surmise that your ability to see facts is as honed as your ability to pvp.
My understanding is TGFT tends to gets along with everyone so long as they don't interrupt free trade. They have struggled with nationalist groups because the nationalist groups demand TGFT not allow "free trade" to the other nation(s) and make shallow judgements based on faction standing rather than behavior.
Okay wally, I'll bite.
TGFT's first mistake here is that diplomacy isn't about 'demanding' anything. It's reaching a mutually agreeable solution that puts you in a better position than you would have otherwise been without it. TGFT's approach is 'all or nothing'. If they can't get their way in its entirety they would rather hurt themselves than make the appearance of concession. This is why Bojan describes their diplomacy as Machiavellian; it is.
Secondly, 'free trade' is TGFT's buzzword that they like to broadcast to everybody, but what does it actually mean for diplomacy. I've devoted much time to trying to discover the true limitations of what free trade actually is. My conclusion is that there are no limitations. Free trade is claimed as a defence to any and all behaviours that TGFT engage in regardless of their impact for or against another party.
Too vague? Let me give you some practical examples.
- Selling weapons to your enemy but not to you is 'free trade' according to TGFT
- Giving safe harbour aboard your trident to ones enemy is 'free trade' according to TGFT
- Blatantly supporting ones enemy in exclusivity by raising only your standing with their side, flying their ships and supporting their economy but not your own is 'free trade' according to TGFT
- Giving confidential trade tips to ones enemy is 'free trade' according to TGFT.
- Giving confidential location data in real-time exclusively to ones enemy is 'free trade' according to TGFT.
- Giving plugin technology exclusively to ones enemy that provides a material in-game advantage is 'free trade' according to TGFT.
Diplomacy with TGFT works like this; there are one of two responses a TGFT official will give in diplomatic talks in response to a reasonable assertion that something egregious has occured:
(1) It didn't happen; or
(2) It's free trade.
Now of course I'm not your average VO diplomat, so when I conducted negotiations with TGFT I didn't just get to read the official responses, I read all the behind doors discussions to because in addition to TGFT being a very old guild they use a very old forum package that is so full of security holes that even a mediocre hacker like me can run database queries and pull out all the data.
When I read the internal discussions that TGFT had it seemed they were aware of all the issues I raised but they felt it would be the best 'negotiation position' to deny everything or claim it as legitimate free trade. Now obviously it's quite devious of me to spy on the other side during a negotiation, but my negotiations were still in good faith, in other words, I was prepared to come to some compromise in order to reach an agreement.
TGFT on the other hand performed their negotiation in bad faith and had no intention whatsoever to compromise in order to reach a more favourable position, instead we pounded them into the ground, we got bored, they claimed victory (hilariously) and Bojan returned to pick up the mantle.
Now, rather poetically, you have simply two choices for the future of your guild:
(1) Continue forever without station access; or
(2) Show good faith, expel all your leadership positions and start a fresh.
It comes down to that, you can't beat the entire VO universe against you, and we all are.
Okay wally, I'll bite.
TGFT's first mistake here is that diplomacy isn't about 'demanding' anything. It's reaching a mutually agreeable solution that puts you in a better position than you would have otherwise been without it. TGFT's approach is 'all or nothing'. If they can't get their way in its entirety they would rather hurt themselves than make the appearance of concession. This is why Bojan describes their diplomacy as Machiavellian; it is.
Secondly, 'free trade' is TGFT's buzzword that they like to broadcast to everybody, but what does it actually mean for diplomacy. I've devoted much time to trying to discover the true limitations of what free trade actually is. My conclusion is that there are no limitations. Free trade is claimed as a defence to any and all behaviours that TGFT engage in regardless of their impact for or against another party.
Too vague? Let me give you some practical examples.
- Selling weapons to your enemy but not to you is 'free trade' according to TGFT
- Giving safe harbour aboard your trident to ones enemy is 'free trade' according to TGFT
- Blatantly supporting ones enemy in exclusivity by raising only your standing with their side, flying their ships and supporting their economy but not your own is 'free trade' according to TGFT
- Giving confidential trade tips to ones enemy is 'free trade' according to TGFT.
- Giving confidential location data in real-time exclusively to ones enemy is 'free trade' according to TGFT.
- Giving plugin technology exclusively to ones enemy that provides a material in-game advantage is 'free trade' according to TGFT.
Diplomacy with TGFT works like this; there are one of two responses a TGFT official will give in diplomatic talks in response to a reasonable assertion that something egregious has occured:
(1) It didn't happen; or
(2) It's free trade.
Now of course I'm not your average VO diplomat, so when I conducted negotiations with TGFT I didn't just get to read the official responses, I read all the behind doors discussions to because in addition to TGFT being a very old guild they use a very old forum package that is so full of security holes that even a mediocre hacker like me can run database queries and pull out all the data.
When I read the internal discussions that TGFT had it seemed they were aware of all the issues I raised but they felt it would be the best 'negotiation position' to deny everything or claim it as legitimate free trade. Now obviously it's quite devious of me to spy on the other side during a negotiation, but my negotiations were still in good faith, in other words, I was prepared to come to some compromise in order to reach an agreement.
TGFT on the other hand performed their negotiation in bad faith and had no intention whatsoever to compromise in order to reach a more favourable position, instead we pounded them into the ground, we got bored, they claimed victory (hilariously) and Bojan returned to pick up the mantle.
Now, rather poetically, you have simply two choices for the future of your guild:
(1) Continue forever without station access; or
(2) Show good faith, expel all your leadership positions and start a fresh.
It comes down to that, you can't beat the entire VO universe against you, and we all are.
There is a third option.
Get on the rag and start bombing stations. We're talking about a guild with dozens of capital ships and, supposedly a player base who should be able to mount one hell of an offensive. You're not going to win the game by posting on the forum.
you can't beat the entire VO universe against you,
That's not as difficult as it might seem.
Get on the rag and start bombing stations. We're talking about a guild with dozens of capital ships and, supposedly a player base who should be able to mount one hell of an offensive. You're not going to win the game by posting on the forum.
you can't beat the entire VO universe against you,
That's not as difficult as it might seem.
Arf, the problem is that by TGFT measure, deaths are losses, so they avoid real assault efforts which would provide kills to their enemies, and in so doing, make themselves completely ineffective.
A year from now, they'll come back, recruit a bunch of newbies, and boast of their victory.
A year from now, they'll come back, recruit a bunch of newbies, and boast of their victory.
Didn't they do this once me/DSO/Sanan/everyone else got bored
Well first of all I'm not in TGFT. I'm commander of PA. So I, of course, can only comment from my external, but informed, point of observation.
During the period of time which you are referring (RED vs TGFT war), the reason for conflict was because, from the very beginning, you demanded a neutral guild have no friendly relations whatsoever with your enemies. You made no exceptions to this. Obviously such an ultimatum is not going to be met with any serious consideration.
From that point moving forward it's of no surprise that TGFT continued it's trade activities with those friendly with it, including Itani nationalists. It's no surprise that TGFT would not "play nice" with people who were attacking them and restricting conquerable station access. From my vantage point, the entire aggression of RED against TGFT appeared to be focused at drawing TGFT into conflict rather than resolving it. You, Espionage, were more interested in creating a third "nationalist entity" out of TGFT that both serco and itani nationalists would fight. While you may have mounted an impressive combat offensive against TGFT, you made the same mistake Bojan is making now (or, did make before he lost the lifeblood of his guild) -- which is that TGFT is not a combat guild. They will never be the enemy you want them to be.
This is not to say there haven't been individuals within TGFT that were instigative and went against official guild policy, or that TGFT always made good decisions. But, generally speaking, the wars of SKV and RED/ONE against TGFT have been started by the aforementioned nationalist guilds purely out of an interest in generating more conflict.
That you supposedly "hacked" the TGFT website is of no surprise, nor would it be a surprise that you are lying about hacking it to make yourself look like more of a "spy" than you actually are. That's the problem with dishonesty, Mr. Armand, people don't take you at your word. Regardless, it appears you are saying you folded on negotations before showing your offer of compromise. How is that in good faith?
Anyway, dropping ultimatums for TGFT has never proven productive. The entire universe is not against TGFT -- only a couple individuals with a pathological quest for conflict-acquired power.
During the period of time which you are referring (RED vs TGFT war), the reason for conflict was because, from the very beginning, you demanded a neutral guild have no friendly relations whatsoever with your enemies. You made no exceptions to this. Obviously such an ultimatum is not going to be met with any serious consideration.
From that point moving forward it's of no surprise that TGFT continued it's trade activities with those friendly with it, including Itani nationalists. It's no surprise that TGFT would not "play nice" with people who were attacking them and restricting conquerable station access. From my vantage point, the entire aggression of RED against TGFT appeared to be focused at drawing TGFT into conflict rather than resolving it. You, Espionage, were more interested in creating a third "nationalist entity" out of TGFT that both serco and itani nationalists would fight. While you may have mounted an impressive combat offensive against TGFT, you made the same mistake Bojan is making now (or, did make before he lost the lifeblood of his guild) -- which is that TGFT is not a combat guild. They will never be the enemy you want them to be.
This is not to say there haven't been individuals within TGFT that were instigative and went against official guild policy, or that TGFT always made good decisions. But, generally speaking, the wars of SKV and RED/ONE against TGFT have been started by the aforementioned nationalist guilds purely out of an interest in generating more conflict.
That you supposedly "hacked" the TGFT website is of no surprise, nor would it be a surprise that you are lying about hacking it to make yourself look like more of a "spy" than you actually are. That's the problem with dishonesty, Mr. Armand, people don't take you at your word. Regardless, it appears you are saying you folded on negotations before showing your offer of compromise. How is that in good faith?
Anyway, dropping ultimatums for TGFT has never proven productive. The entire universe is not against TGFT -- only a couple individuals with a pathological quest for conflict-acquired power.
I proposed dozens of possible alternatives. You've got it completely wrong, we knew that TGFT wasn't a combat guild the whole time, that's why we asked them to pay for station access since they wouldn't and couldnt contribute to holding them or defending them from enemies in exchange for access.
Evidently this was 'against free trade' also. It highlights perfectly what TGFT is actually against; fair trade.
Also you can make the case that my personality was a barrier all you like. But Sheffield from ONE tried to negotiate, dirty tried, star buck tried and many other itani and other guilds tried (remember FR?). They don't negotiate. They don't know what it means.
It may have started with just me and Bojan or a few other leaders against TGFT but youre blind if you can't see its turned into a verse wide movement and for good reason.
Evidently this was 'against free trade' also. It highlights perfectly what TGFT is actually against; fair trade.
Also you can make the case that my personality was a barrier all you like. But Sheffield from ONE tried to negotiate, dirty tried, star buck tried and many other itani and other guilds tried (remember FR?). They don't negotiate. They don't know what it means.
It may have started with just me and Bojan or a few other leaders against TGFT but youre blind if you can't see its turned into a verse wide movement and for good reason.
Sheffield from ONE tried to negotiate, dirty tried, star buck tried and many other itani and other guilds tried
Your definition of "tried" is amusing.
Your definition of "tried" is amusing.