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As my thread got trolled AND whistler helped the trolls by making the situation impossible, i'll have to reopen this. (Excuse me for being blunt...) I want to talk and especially read about what others think, im serious about it...
Whistler: please moderate, meaning you delete the offending posts in a honest thread instead of locking it and doing what the trolls want...
Original text:
I've been reading the RP forums and 100 quite a bit. Im stunned by the sheer amount of hate (its not just anger, as it seems).
All the (hidden) insults, accusations. No discussions, just a see-sawing (sometimes just a wall of text).
When i joined a year ago, the RP forums were already like that, but not like today. Nowadays we have the same shit on 100 over and over.
Then i read about people being stalked IRL or even blackmailed (no idea if those things are true!). Isnt this going a bit too far? If that is true, then RP aint something for you.
While still being new to VO and without knowing a lot of VO history, i think this hateful atmosphere has to end or be reduced drastically.
Its starting to get an all out hate/war relationship with everyone trying to back stab each other and continues insults.
Is this the RP you seek? Im not telling you to stop, just to think about it.
Im looking for more input on what the others think about this. Dont create another slanderous hate thread, that wouldnt really help and just proof my point.
Xeha
PS: there are some (only a few) good answeres beside the trolling in the old threat, may be worth reading. Old thread here https://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/14/31777
Whistler: please moderate, meaning you delete the offending posts in a honest thread instead of locking it and doing what the trolls want...
Original text:
I've been reading the RP forums and 100 quite a bit. Im stunned by the sheer amount of hate (its not just anger, as it seems).
All the (hidden) insults, accusations. No discussions, just a see-sawing (sometimes just a wall of text).
When i joined a year ago, the RP forums were already like that, but not like today. Nowadays we have the same shit on 100 over and over.
Then i read about people being stalked IRL or even blackmailed (no idea if those things are true!). Isnt this going a bit too far? If that is true, then RP aint something for you.
While still being new to VO and without knowing a lot of VO history, i think this hateful atmosphere has to end or be reduced drastically.
Its starting to get an all out hate/war relationship with everyone trying to back stab each other and continues insults.
Is this the RP you seek? Im not telling you to stop, just to think about it.
Im looking for more input on what the others think about this. Dont create another slanderous hate thread, that wouldnt really help and just proof my point.
Xeha
PS: there are some (only a few) good answeres beside the trolling in the old threat, may be worth reading. Old thread here https://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/14/31777
My answer in the original thread.
Thank you for re-posting it.
It would really be nice if there was moderation (deleting posts, thread banning offenders) instead of locking and effectively ruining a valid discussion.
Thank you for re-posting it.
It would really be nice if there was moderation (deleting posts, thread banning offenders) instead of locking and effectively ruining a valid discussion.
Here's an honest question. How does talking about it solve anything?
Leopards do not change their spots.
Leopards do not change their spots.
Although it certainly would be preferable to delete offensive content instead of locking an entire thread, we also cannot expect forum mods. to spend 24/7 monitoring the forums, and personally responsibility is required despite the anonymity VO provides.
As players all we can do is to control what we say and do as individuals. This thread will not make the things you have a problem with go away.
If you make good content yourself, people will remember it, if that content gets trolled, reacting to the trolling will only make it happen more, if in response you begin trolling yourself.
And anytime someone takes something beyond the scope of Vendetta and into the realm of RL. It should be vilified by the entire community, for it is an attack on all of us regardless of who we are in game.
As players all we can do is to control what we say and do as individuals. This thread will not make the things you have a problem with go away.
If you make good content yourself, people will remember it, if that content gets trolled, reacting to the trolling will only make it happen more, if in response you begin trolling yourself.
And anytime someone takes something beyond the scope of Vendetta and into the realm of RL. It should be vilified by the entire community, for it is an attack on all of us regardless of who we are in game.
How long should that ban be?
@ Xeha: "As my thread got trolled AND whistler helped the trolls by making the situation impossible,...","Whistler: please moderate, meaning you delete the offending posts in a honest thread instead of locking it and doing what the trolls want..."
I'm willing to tolerate your presumptuous reposting, but your comment here is a bit offensive. It's interesting that you have such high expectations, yet show so little regard. This sort of behavior exacerbates the issue you are writing about. You honestly couldn't be bothered to address me more politely in a post about "hateful atmosphere"?
In this case there were so many posts in such a short time that, in my experience, deleting them would not expunge what had been said. I disagree with your premise that "the trolls won". I put out a wildfire in a way that is historically effective, and you were able to try again with less thread baggage. When I have time or happen across an issue early on I may take the time to surgically manage the situation, but sometimes I just have to squelch it. Sorry you didn't agree but realize that the nature of what I do here, given the tools and time available, is always controversial.
@Space Pancakes: Agreed and well said.
I'm willing to tolerate your presumptuous reposting, but your comment here is a bit offensive. It's interesting that you have such high expectations, yet show so little regard. This sort of behavior exacerbates the issue you are writing about. You honestly couldn't be bothered to address me more politely in a post about "hateful atmosphere"?
In this case there were so many posts in such a short time that, in my experience, deleting them would not expunge what had been said. I disagree with your premise that "the trolls won". I put out a wildfire in a way that is historically effective, and you were able to try again with less thread baggage. When I have time or happen across an issue early on I may take the time to surgically manage the situation, but sometimes I just have to squelch it. Sorry you didn't agree but realize that the nature of what I do here, given the tools and time available, is always controversial.
@Space Pancakes: Agreed and well said.
The ninja trick post just did a ninja poof! :P
"I've been reading the RP forums and 100 quite a bit. Im stunned by the sheer amount of hate (its not just anger, as it seems).
All the (hidden) insults, accusations. No discussions, just a see-sawing (sometimes just a wall of text)."
Not new. You probably just joined during a trough in the drama wave. There has always been drama like this between various groups of idiots. Sometimes it's the people who think consensual combat should be removed from the game because anybody who plays a pirate is evil. Sometimes it's the people who think plugins are unfair to stupid people. Sometimes it's the people who are upset that they're too incompetent to build tridents. Sometimes it's a guild who doesn't like another guild's policies. And sometimes it's just imaginary.
A big part of it is that this is a game about conflict, but too many people want to portray themselves as being the good guys, so they have to go through all sorts of bullshit to justify why they're fighting each other. And at the same time, other people really don't want to be attacked, so they invent all sorts of reasons for why it's wrong to attack them. And some people just find it fun to be noisy and have attention, so they inflate everything even more. On top of all that, a lot of people like making up excuses about how they didn't actually lose whatever conflict, since they're wimps, so those arguments just add to the pile.
In the end though, your perception that everybody is at everybody's throats is false. A very small set of people are at each other's throats, and everybody else is just rolling their eyes or throwing rocks at the idiots in their little drama orgy.
"I've been reading the RP forums and 100 quite a bit. Im stunned by the sheer amount of hate (its not just anger, as it seems).
All the (hidden) insults, accusations. No discussions, just a see-sawing (sometimes just a wall of text)."
Not new. You probably just joined during a trough in the drama wave. There has always been drama like this between various groups of idiots. Sometimes it's the people who think consensual combat should be removed from the game because anybody who plays a pirate is evil. Sometimes it's the people who think plugins are unfair to stupid people. Sometimes it's the people who are upset that they're too incompetent to build tridents. Sometimes it's a guild who doesn't like another guild's policies. And sometimes it's just imaginary.
A big part of it is that this is a game about conflict, but too many people want to portray themselves as being the good guys, so they have to go through all sorts of bullshit to justify why they're fighting each other. And at the same time, other people really don't want to be attacked, so they invent all sorts of reasons for why it's wrong to attack them. And some people just find it fun to be noisy and have attention, so they inflate everything even more. On top of all that, a lot of people like making up excuses about how they didn't actually lose whatever conflict, since they're wimps, so those arguments just add to the pile.
In the end though, your perception that everybody is at everybody's throats is false. A very small set of people are at each other's throats, and everybody else is just rolling their eyes or throwing rocks at the idiots in their little drama orgy.
Xeha, the trolls win here because there is, as I have said, not the time, not the resources, and not the interest available to "prune off the bad leaves", so to speak. The devs would much rather everyone simply just not respond to incessant, unfair and unwarranted harrassment and trolling, rather than lay the banhammer down on those who make it their business to exclusively and boundlessly antagonize on these forums.
At least in game we have the ability to mute people if there is enough community interest in doing so. We also have the ability to leave channels and only talk and see communications of those we want to. The forums are much different.
In many of our minds it seems to be an easy concept to just permanently ban repeat offenders. But for whatever reason I cannot understand, this solution is not preferable to Incarnate. And that's that.
So, ultimately, we simply have to tolerate those who have to resort to non-RP related insults and harrassment. It's not easy to do, especially when you yourself are the target.
The best advice I can offer is to release whatever expectations you have about VO and go with the flow.
At least in game we have the ability to mute people if there is enough community interest in doing so. We also have the ability to leave channels and only talk and see communications of those we want to. The forums are much different.
In many of our minds it seems to be an easy concept to just permanently ban repeat offenders. But for whatever reason I cannot understand, this solution is not preferable to Incarnate. And that's that.
So, ultimately, we simply have to tolerate those who have to resort to non-RP related insults and harrassment. It's not easy to do, especially when you yourself are the target.
The best advice I can offer is to release whatever expectations you have about VO and go with the flow.
@ Pizzasgood
I agree. I find the current iteration of active forum users to be less volatile than recent iterations, aside from this brief flash. The forums and game are always in a state of flux, varying with whoever is active.
I agree. I find the current iteration of active forum users to be less volatile than recent iterations, aside from this brief flash. The forums and game are always in a state of flux, varying with whoever is active.
@Whistler -- I think you took that a little too personally. Xeha has a valid point and he was hardly impolite or rude to you, much less presumptuous. What's presumptuous is thinking that because one has moderation capability that they are capable of moderating (*that*, my friend would be me being slightly rude).
Granted, it must be like herding cats, particularly with this antiquated forum software. But surely a modicum of discourse can be had on any topic with an expectation of civility. If so, then attempting to restart the topic and asking for civility and expecting moderation to that standard is not presumptuous.
@Xeha -- I tend to simply not read much of what several people post either here or on 100. In fact, i sometimes simply put them on /ignore while in-game. Coincidentally, the people I ignore or avoid are the ones that seem to do shady things with the game mechanics. I have a disdain for people who are unethical and cheat. Perhaps its just the appearance of cheating. If it is, their behavior does little to gain sympathy or dispel the notion. And these individuals are at one side of the vitriol and hatred here and on 100.
I'm not claiming that my behavior or that of others on the "other side" (as it were) are any less guilty. I'm just saying what one of the core issues are. The most recent example of this is the appearance that one or more of these people have purchased Veteran accounts with badges like Alpha or Beta. The need for status and peer acceptance in a case like this reaches narcissistic levels and puts people off.
Granted, it must be like herding cats, particularly with this antiquated forum software. But surely a modicum of discourse can be had on any topic with an expectation of civility. If so, then attempting to restart the topic and asking for civility and expecting moderation to that standard is not presumptuous.
@Xeha -- I tend to simply not read much of what several people post either here or on 100. In fact, i sometimes simply put them on /ignore while in-game. Coincidentally, the people I ignore or avoid are the ones that seem to do shady things with the game mechanics. I have a disdain for people who are unethical and cheat. Perhaps its just the appearance of cheating. If it is, their behavior does little to gain sympathy or dispel the notion. And these individuals are at one side of the vitriol and hatred here and on 100.
I'm not claiming that my behavior or that of others on the "other side" (as it were) are any less guilty. I'm just saying what one of the core issues are. The most recent example of this is the appearance that one or more of these people have purchased Veteran accounts with badges like Alpha or Beta. The need for status and peer acceptance in a case like this reaches narcissistic levels and puts people off.
No, recreating a locked thread is presumptuous (and specifically forbidden in the "Be Nice" rules), as is telling me how to do the job ("please moderate, meaning you delete the offending posts in a honest thread instead of locking it and doing what the trolls want...").
The discourse is being had right here and now, unimpeded by further trolling you will note. I have not only tolerated it, but fostered it.
Perhaps if people expended more energy on criticizing those who actually transgress, we would have a better experience here. All too often the energy is directed at the one person who never retaliates. That's very safe, isn't it? If people want a better culture, they'll have to get some skin in the game. I'm all in already - how about you?
The discourse is being had right here and now, unimpeded by further trolling you will note. I have not only tolerated it, but fostered it.
Perhaps if people expended more energy on criticizing those who actually transgress, we would have a better experience here. All too often the energy is directed at the one person who never retaliates. That's very safe, isn't it? If people want a better culture, they'll have to get some skin in the game. I'm all in already - how about you?
Perhaps if people expended more energy on criticizing those who actually transgress, we would have a better experience here.
There are REAMS of pages criticizing those who transgress, and NOTHING has gotten better. Perhaps not, lol.
I would just like to point out Whistler, that you just fell victim to what many of us here fall victim to: when one is unfairly criticized. When one is unfairly criticized, one feels an intense desire to "set the record straight". Which you have done.
What I would like to know is why the hell people aren't banned for repeatedly leveling unfounded, and clearly purposefully antogonizing posts filled with unfair criticisms and taunts that surpass anything that could be perceived as relevance to the topic. There are those here that are guilty as all hell of epitomizing what it means to be a "troll", causing all kinds of consternation and raising levels of "hate" to seething levels all for the "lulz".
Why aren't they removed? ? ? The overwhelming majority of forum participants are able to avoid "going there", but there are the noted few who "go there" with every single fucking post.
There are REAMS of pages criticizing those who transgress, and NOTHING has gotten better. Perhaps not, lol.
I would just like to point out Whistler, that you just fell victim to what many of us here fall victim to: when one is unfairly criticized. When one is unfairly criticized, one feels an intense desire to "set the record straight". Which you have done.
What I would like to know is why the hell people aren't banned for repeatedly leveling unfounded, and clearly purposefully antogonizing posts filled with unfair criticisms and taunts that surpass anything that could be perceived as relevance to the topic. There are those here that are guilty as all hell of epitomizing what it means to be a "troll", causing all kinds of consternation and raising levels of "hate" to seething levels all for the "lulz".
Why aren't they removed? ? ? The overwhelming majority of forum participants are able to avoid "going there", but there are the noted few who "go there" with every single fucking post.
I removed some off-topic and provocative stuff in order to keep the focus on discourse.
@greenwall: Oh no, I have fallen victim to "setting the record straight"? I regret the shame I have brought to my family. As ritual suicide would void my benefits package, I will have to endure the shame.
I have been given some rough tools and "Be Nice" guidelines and I strive to use them artfully for the sole purpose of keeping the developers developing. That's it. I'm not here for approval or a sense of control. This is what I can do to help make the game better faster.
The majority of forum users do not extend themselves to holding others to a higher standard. Many remain silent, while others seem to support the negative behavior. Very few act to improve the community. "Reams"? Hardly. There is a modicum of constructive feedback, significantly more of the problematic sort of feedback, and mostly silence.
You specifically, greenwall, have "gone there" frequently enough. How will YOU modify your behavior to improve the culture?
@SkinWalker: You wrote "I'm not claiming that my behavior or that of others on the "other side" (as it were) are any less guilty." How will YOU modify your behavior to improve the culture?
@greenwall: Oh no, I have fallen victim to "setting the record straight"? I regret the shame I have brought to my family. As ritual suicide would void my benefits package, I will have to endure the shame.
I have been given some rough tools and "Be Nice" guidelines and I strive to use them artfully for the sole purpose of keeping the developers developing. That's it. I'm not here for approval or a sense of control. This is what I can do to help make the game better faster.
The majority of forum users do not extend themselves to holding others to a higher standard. Many remain silent, while others seem to support the negative behavior. Very few act to improve the community. "Reams"? Hardly. There is a modicum of constructive feedback, significantly more of the problematic sort of feedback, and mostly silence.
You specifically, greenwall, have "gone there" frequently enough. How will YOU modify your behavior to improve the culture?
@SkinWalker: You wrote "I'm not claiming that my behavior or that of others on the "other side" (as it were) are any less guilty." How will YOU modify your behavior to improve the culture?
Since you've chosen to be a participant-observer (at best) rather than a detached moderator, what do YOU suggest?
I never claimed to be nor was asked to be a detached moderator. That would be a reasonable ask of someone who was somehow reimbursed for their time and effort - but I'm a paying customer with the same rights as everyone else. I get to be a participant, and probably wouldn't accept reimbursement in exchange for detachment. I do attenuate a bit out of deference to Incarnate, but that's just a courtesy.
Since you asked: You wrote "I'm not claiming that my behavior or that of others on the "other side" (as it were) are any less guilty." therefore I suggest that you alter your behavior so that you can claim to be less guilty. What behaviors were you referring to, and which will you change?
Since you asked: You wrote "I'm not claiming that my behavior or that of others on the "other side" (as it were) are any less guilty." therefore I suggest that you alter your behavior so that you can claim to be less guilty. What behaviors were you referring to, and which will you change?
Blah... giant response deleted because this discussion accomplishes nothing.
Lets not derail this thread too much.
Im surprised i dont see more feedback from others. Did they just accept the actual situation and dont want to bother? I dont see how ignoring something will make things better.
On the other hand, i've witnessed quite some things which are against the game rules without penalty. Im not saying there should be penalty. The Community and the Developers have to decide if either there are rules which are enforced, or you drop the rules and say its a lawless sandbox game. Lots of the posts are about violating of rules which only fuels that discussion more.
Whats surprising is many of the ones screaming about the others fault DONT speak up here. I guess those just want to point fingers and dont give a shit about the situation. Lets see if more people will chime in.
@joylessjoker
I never said it changes something, but its the first step that may lead to a change. If nothing changes, i'll just be one of those that ignore the RP section too.
Leopards seem to change their spots, because you didnt troll for once! Thanks for that.
@Space Pancakes
I agree that its hard to moderate this RP section. Im not expecting that the problems will go away by just talking about it, but its the first step for change.
If its a question of manpower for moderation, im sure some people would be willing to help.
@Whistler
Im sry if that was too rude. I understand its a pain to moderate. I was nice and all and my thread got locked, hence i tried it the other way (sad, i know...). Thanks for deleting the offending posts. Regarding the "Be Nice" rules, most of the threads should have been deleted immediately, hence i felt recreating a thread is just a minor thing.
@Pizzasgood
I agree on the guild/people relationship. Well, it seems most people just shut up instead of participating becuase of the atmosphere. Leading to the "everybody is at everybody's throats".
@greenwall
Tolerating seems to be hardly a solution. This just gives more breeding ground for such behavior. Im sorry to say but from time to time, you are just pointing fingers too... I choose to not go with the flow.
@SkinWalker
I've ignored certain things too. But over time i see that if you just ignore it, they grow even more. Vanity is always an issue, no matter if its a game or something else.
@morgan
I dont think you can actually ban people from a thread. This is a rather minimalistic forum software.
Im surprised i dont see more feedback from others. Did they just accept the actual situation and dont want to bother? I dont see how ignoring something will make things better.
On the other hand, i've witnessed quite some things which are against the game rules without penalty. Im not saying there should be penalty. The Community and the Developers have to decide if either there are rules which are enforced, or you drop the rules and say its a lawless sandbox game. Lots of the posts are about violating of rules which only fuels that discussion more.
Whats surprising is many of the ones screaming about the others fault DONT speak up here. I guess those just want to point fingers and dont give a shit about the situation. Lets see if more people will chime in.
@joylessjoker
I never said it changes something, but its the first step that may lead to a change. If nothing changes, i'll just be one of those that ignore the RP section too.
Leopards seem to change their spots, because you didnt troll for once! Thanks for that.
@Space Pancakes
I agree that its hard to moderate this RP section. Im not expecting that the problems will go away by just talking about it, but its the first step for change.
If its a question of manpower for moderation, im sure some people would be willing to help.
@Whistler
Im sry if that was too rude. I understand its a pain to moderate. I was nice and all and my thread got locked, hence i tried it the other way (sad, i know...). Thanks for deleting the offending posts. Regarding the "Be Nice" rules, most of the threads should have been deleted immediately, hence i felt recreating a thread is just a minor thing.
@Pizzasgood
I agree on the guild/people relationship. Well, it seems most people just shut up instead of participating becuase of the atmosphere. Leading to the "everybody is at everybody's throats".
@greenwall
Tolerating seems to be hardly a solution. This just gives more breeding ground for such behavior. Im sorry to say but from time to time, you are just pointing fingers too... I choose to not go with the flow.
@SkinWalker
I've ignored certain things too. But over time i see that if you just ignore it, they grow even more. Vanity is always an issue, no matter if its a game or something else.
@morgan
I dont think you can actually ban people from a thread. This is a rather minimalistic forum software.
@Xeha Yes you can be banned from a thread.
@Xeha
First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.
First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.
You guys have too much time on your hands.