Nice...
Interesting, indeed, that the Vipers are called dishonorable in this case. I was also involved in such an incident. On the same night... in Sedina B-8, and at the same time, I believe. I made amends, as it was my fault for not notifying my mates that I was "dueling".

And I am a Viper.

Here is where I see your assessment go awry... your statement "It shouldn't matter where it is" is the very "Topic" of this thread - over a week old, debated thoroughly *prior* to your incident... and in most every case above it was stated that location *does* indeed matter. Even the pirates agree - Grey Space is a very dangerous place to be. There are no rules there. Especially in B-8 where the CtC route resides.

My points:
[*]Sedina B-8 is No Rules. (therefore no fouls, so no dishonor - it is incorrect to judge based on a false premise or double standard)
[*]Duels are not signaled, nor indicated outside of the participants themselves. Sector chat only works for those that were *in* sector to receive the notification at the time. New arrivals to the area will not have the benefit of notification. If notification is broken, incidents *will* occur - especially in an area where "unfair" battles take place all the time. Not all battles are 1-on-1, and I personally don't feel that they should be limited to 1-on-1.
[*]The universe is a *very* big place. Safe Duels can take place all over. Sedina B-8 is not the place to expect calm, orderly participation. Warnings have been given in the context of the above posts.

Truly a sad day, when a force of justice is judged by a double standard based on a false premise. Please feel free to discuss our honor with those traders, and guilds of traders, who have benefited from our dedication and welcome our help.

Seta of the Clan Ralel

leapfrog, i am a pirate and i said i was agenst anyone dictating when and where duels should take place. and i was the one that brought up the consideration (honor) thing. :)

sedina is the premire place to find a fight. so when one is looking for a duel, why wouldn't they go to b-8?

anyway, it is my belief that consideration for others should still be top priority despite any war that is going on. well the only war anyway, BLAK vs vpr/IA.... and it is not much of a war... massicaring you guys is a little more boring then killing npcs! :D

see ya in game!
Sebastian

The problem VPR's is that you consider an affront to your authority to be the same as piracy.

We could look at the example of Zet, who attempted to come to the aid of Serpentine, who was on the run from several VPR's.

Zet has, since, been repeatedly killed by VPR's while posing no threat to them, or to anyone else.

Frankly, you're a vigilante gang.

You like to fight BLAK, but I don't see you doing escort runs. I see you spending time brawling with "pirates". Pirates that don't do much pirating apart from killing you.

So lets can the high-and-mighty moral talk, and just speak plain.
You guys like to fight BLAK members.

You don't have a clear set of well-publicized rules of conduct and you interfere in the comradery of warriors.

You're warriors without any particular war to fight. As is most of the UIT.

We used to have fun fighting VPRs, when it was all fun and games.

But now, it is no more fun. I remember I fought a 4 vs 1 (with a couple of IA thrown in now and then), alone, and kept dying just to give them a fight. Everytime I die, I come back and there they are, all healed and ready to kill me again.

That's fine, I don't mind dying. It is important to let the othe r party have the satisfaction of killing me after a fight as a courtesy. But when I drop one to 20, he turboes away. Everytime. Please don't make me name names, because they include some major members of VPRs, but suffice to say that not all VPRs are like that. (I apologize to those who I really respect and enjoy fighting, but once names get out this thread is going to hell).

This is a game, I understand. People wants to have fun. But when you deny other people's fun to have a fair fight, and RUN WHEN YOU ARE IN A 4 TO 1, that's when I realized that you are no longer sportsmen, but thugs.

So I am not going to give VPRs battle, because if I do, I will just become nasty myself (like I just did when i griefed a VPR who killed me while I was chatting with other VPRs, PARKED). VPRs like to fight BLAK, sure, but we don't have to give them battle if they don't want to fight sportingly. That's too bad, because I like many members of VPRs.

I used to never run from fights, even when I used ammo if I ran outta ammo I would just park my ship and let the bettet pilot get his kill. But then IA and VRP started lining up to fight us and they would never let me get my kills I had earnd. They almost never fight fair, and due to this fact I try to never let them get kills on me. Why should I? They run off when they vastly out number me, I see no reason for me to stay around, after all I'm the moraless one.

I agree with Shape VPR and IA are nothing more then a lawless vigilante gang.

As to leapfrog assertion that there are traders out there to owe VPR/IA for all the help they have given the the traders I would like to see some proof. I.E. I want to see some traders that have been escorted for free by either IA or VPR, I would like to see some traders that we being hunted down by pirates only to be saved by some IA/VPR guys.

So come on traders tell us all about the many times VPR or IA have gone outta thier way to help you, tell us how much you love them, tell us how you could not live with out them.

And on that line, is there anyone who is not a pirate that has a problem with Vipers? I have a problem with guild bashing on the forum. You guys aren't RP here your just being mean. Some Vipers don't even pvp, they just help people out with the game. I've escorted NPC traders for cripes sake.

>You don't have a clear set of well-publicized rules of conduct

Why do you even say that? You've been to our web site you know it's not true.

It's in the section called: Public Viper Guild Policy

I guess we could write a bot to spam it to chat now and then.

Zet by the way did a lot more than what was stated, and who cares anyway, we had fun Role Playing with him, and had a fair amount of discussion about how to handle him. The overall instinct of our leaders was to cut him some slack. He was given at least 3 opportunities in 1 night to stop helping BL, but I think he has a friend in BL, plus he was pretty mad at one of our members. So that's how it goes, b-8 is crazy, no?

No one mentions that Zet killed me without warning while Shape and Alamar were chasing me with rocket rags eh, and a UIT that I couldn't shoot was healing them all? I guess that's not important though. Shape is good at "sumrzing" events.

Here's an idea though, quit all this whiny **** and take a break from the game if you can't handle it.

I've got the shaft in combat more times than I can count. And that includes from almost every one in this post talking about "fair" fights. So what, it was all fun too! So pull the stick out of your donkeys and try to have some fun. If your not having fun then go do something else or go find another sector. Maybe you should trade or mine for a while. Sometimes you eat the bar, sometimes the bar eats you.

It's so chaotic in Sedian the potential for misunderstanding is pretty obvious. To take it to seriously is ridiculous.

Since when don't we want crazy free for all fights in b-8 anyway? Again, most people aren't saying don't duel is b-8, they are saying don't whine if it gets messed up. I say that goes for anything in b-8. It's a free for all ctc, guild war combat sector. **** is likely to happen.

intersting. how many people have ever seen me in a rocket rag? yes, I fly a rag at times, and a lot of other ships, but at most you'll find one set of jakcs on any of them. ever.

but, hey, it's okay Hoax. I don't care. I'll just pirate some people instead when I get annoyed. some good RP, go hit some poor traders in UiT space or something. MB came to the rescue of one such guy yesterday, which was great. of course, for authenticity it would be nice of I'd actually tried to kill the guy, and if I didn't know him well, but hey. :-)

or, let me put it like this, since a few BLAKs didn't feel like fighting runners in B8, there was a fleet of BLAKs going through UiT space a while back. is this helping traders?

and people don't complain to VPRs about VPRs, a few of them complain to us. or at least to me. I try to tell them that they shouldn't judge your guild from a few bad seeds. now, I might be a guy a lot of people talk to for various reason, but yeah, I get complaints from people. and I get people asking to join BL due to VPRs acting badly. or, why do you think UiT people heal us and not you? because they hate our guts?

as last night when Gavan was following two VPRs in SCs, and they ran up and killed a n00b. that was impressive. yes, I know the names involved, but I also know Gavan talked to VPRs about it.

but, as I've said, there are some really great people in VPR. I really enjoy fighting them both in groups and one on one. there are however people I, and others, refuse to fight and give kills to. I don't mind that, I'm BLAK, I can always go find somebody else to kill when the VPRs online annoy me.

>intersting. how many people have ever seen me in a rocket rag?

Yeah you had rails I think, but that's obviously not my point. I'm not trying to mis-characterize you or the events.

>but, hey, it's okay Hoax. I don't care. I'll just pirate some
>people instead when I get annoyed.

That's my point, good. That's much better than whining.

>go hit some poor traders in UiT space or something. MB came to the
>rescue of one such guy yesterday,

There we go not helping people again...

>or, let me put it like this, since a few BLAKs didn't feel like
>fighting runners in B8, there was a fleet of BLAKs going through
>UiT space a while back. is this helping traders?

Once again it's Vipers fault that poor bored BL has to pirate. If only the bad Vipers wouldn't run from fights BL wouldn't have to pirate UIT. Come on ... We're not playing some crazy META-game of helping traders, we don't want guild software to eliminate pirates. We're Role Playing pirate hunters, sometimes we do better than others.

>and people don't complain to VPRs about VPRs, a few of them
>complain to us. or at least to me. I try to tell them that they
>shouldn't judge your guild from a few bad seeds.

Thanks we appreciate that. In all honesty we defend your guild as well, as a necessary and fun part of the game. You might mention to them that if they actually complained to us instead they might see some results however... When role playing we do not defend your guild of course. But then again I don't mind the smelly viper - hail binds, to much in that context either.

>why do you think UiT people heal us and not you? because they
>hate our guts?

I didn't mention that because of guild issues. I mention that to demonstrate that I was getting totally ganked by tactics that some in this thread might deem unfair. I was trying to point out that it occurs regularly and is just part of the game play in that sector.

To say the Vipers are dishonorable because a duel got interrupted in b-8 or some other misunderstanding is silly. I don't claim BL is dishonorable because I got ganked repeatedly by 3 to 1 plus an untouchable medic. I know what to expect in that sector. It was just good sport.

ed. I understand that softy2 and I agree with your posts mostly, I wasn't really refering to them though. If members of our guild are behaving poorly we WILL kick them out too. I'm not sure why people don't want to believe that. Our commanders have been very good (from what I've seen anyway) in replying to complaints. I have to say though even though I've only ran maybe twice in 3 years: I don't care if you run away from me, it's just not worth getting irratated over to me. Plenty of people will fight to the death and I'd rather kill people who aren't going ot freak out about it anyway.

Hoax :

[Possibly flame deleted.]

I didn't say VPRs are dishonourable. I said VPRs are not fun to play with. So I am not fighting you guys. You don't have to repeat what I just said to me.

[EDIT]
Btw, good sport means you give the guy who has fought hard the kill. You may be a good sport, and if you are you will find that I am very friendly in game. But tell me how many of your guildmates are? As a guild everyone uphold its reputation, if some of your guildmates are giving it a bad name, it is the responsiblity of the guild to take care of those. BLAK will and have kicked out players who violates certain code of conduct.

well, a good deal of my last post was RP'in. But there were some other points in there as well.

"well-publicized code of conduct", of course I'VE been to your site, but only after you guys were attacking me anyway. Do people know of these "offenses" before they make them?

As far as Zet, I remember maso jumping in, while Zet and I were chatting, parked, and just blew him up.

Zet laughed it off.

But then the exact same thing happened again.

My point is that a single fight against VPR's makes you KOS with your guild.

This seems a bit odd, we don't do this. We have IA&VPR as KOS. But as far as anyone else, unless they're being very unfriendly, we generally refrain from killing people over and over again.

If you guys ARE pirate hunters, then accept that occasionally other warriors will join the fights (mostly cuz they're REALLY FUN), but this doesn't make them pirates. And they shouldn't be continually harassed for a single battle.

As far as softy's point:

I also have a problem with the running. I mean, everyone does it once or twice, sometimes I understand. But my big problem is people who do it ALL THE TIME. I've been on the wrong end of more
Nv1 fights than my bank account can really support. And with a few exceptions, I have almost always stayed til the end.

But when people start running during the fight, and then jump back in with full health before the fight is over. That bugs me.

Or when they run out of swarms, and run.

Its not that its not a valid tactic. But a code of warriors has begun to develop. And committing to a fight and then running just isn't very sporting. Especially when I know that you're going to commit to the fight again as soon as you repair and rearm.

But just as these methods are a valid tactic, us keeping away from you and avoiding conflict is equally valid. And we can very easily make this game REALLY boring.

Hoax :

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate your patience with my frustration.

Though I must say that the ones who run in that 4 vs 1 fight I had included your commander unfortunately. When he did that for the 2nd time, I finally stopped sacrificing my bank account to pad their scores.

Obviously a bit outside of role playing...

Duels get interupted in B8 all the time. It's happened to me countless times. I've also been attacked more than once trying to respect a duel. By spectators or just proir to the duel being official. I may have spouted once or twice, but i don't hold grudges for it. It happens, i get over it. I wish everyone could realize that duels get interupted in B8 due to the activity. However, most players respect duels, and those who don't learn quickly to respect them. The trick is, type quick with out getting hit durring a duel when someone new arrives. Or announce in group chat before, because when in a group, your mates can't see that you've turned red on radar. When i'm at my best allertness, I can manage the trick of dueling and watching who's in the sector and notifying new arrivals at the same time. It's not something i can do everyday though. (Real life takes it's toll)

Honoralbe... hmm, i've been trashed for getting into group fights, trashed for using certain weapons, and even using certain ships. Whatever, the odds are almost always against me when fighting pirates. There are times when we get the upper hand, but only in the past 2 months has that happened. But I have fought 4 pirates at once and died countless times and not give it a second thought. BLAK holds their members to a great skill level and are a huge, very intimidating advasary for any anti-pirate player.

Just yesterday, i was privy to a sector conversation about 1 of our members being a runner and jumping into a fight along side me, making it a 2 on 1 fight. This was coming from a known pirate, that has jumped in along side Shape, of all players, and helped him annailate me several times like so. Also, one who doesn't die very often and can handle himself large scale battles. Please, if your going to blame poor sportsmanship on someone, be sure not to have done the same things yourself. Let it be known that our expectations (at least up till recently) is that pirates and vipers have group battles. It's has been that way for a while. And we don't complain when we are out numbered.

Now, we don't want to make the game not fun for anyone. We lay off when players when they are overwhelmed or tired of group battles. We respect the pirates, in skills and peronalities, and want to keep status quo of the pirate and anti-pirate role playing. One of the things that draws attention and brings expectations is the large scale battles that goes on between BLAK and VPR. It provides diferent type of action than CTC or 1 on 1 fighting. Granted we all can get tired of any type of action. This game is diverse, if you want to do something else, talk to us on private chat, and we'll oblige and leave you be. (or even help out, but you didn't hear that from me)

Lately, it's been dificult to get even sides with the group battles that go on. I have fought many pirates with 1 or no comrads, and i have fought battles with 1 or 2 pirates and too many mates at my side. It's certainly more fun if the side's are even.

I would like to see chan 100 used for role playing, and the complaints for our members or actions be kept to private chat. Remember, we respect players and will fix issues as they come up.

Back to role playing.
I am always up for a good fox and hound game. Pirate chats on 100 get my attention, and i will come and find you. Eventually, i will find Tramshed's new hiding spot and vape him where he stands. (probably after many attempts though)

MB : (this is all outside RP, I am playing an alt right now, and Holden is going to spend more time helping out new players to PVP.)

I am not saying that multi vs 1 fights are unfair, in fact I enjoy them very much. As i have mentioned in my post, fighting many and dying is fine : I would encourage people to do it. But what bugs me is the running. As you know, I don't run even when I am outnumbered many times over, except on cases where clearly I have killed some and they have respawned and come back while I am still fighting the others who are still alive.

I know you are a great sport and you are one of my favourite opponents. But you were there for all the stuff I described and I hope you understand where I am coming from.

Finally, a word about "honour". Lonestar had it best when he commented somewhere else that it is a bit silly to get sanctimonious about honour in a game. But even in a game, like soccer or tennis, that there is some form of sportsmanship involved. I don't mind multi vs 1 : I don't have to fight multis but it is my choice to do them. But I do mind when people run. Dying is nothing in this game, but when you deny people certain rewards for their hardwork, they are simply not going to play anymore. Running encourage similar behaviour from others, and soon it will be impossible to even get a PK. I can't speak for all BLAK members, but I am so tired of the whole business and I longed for the good old days when VPR-BL rivalry is friendly.

Seems to me there are two reasonable ways to handle the problem of duels being interfered with:

a] obviously, duel somewhere privately. Plenty of empty sectors

b] solve it with technology: VO is patched so that anyone in a /duel can only harm his duel mate, and the duelers can't take damage, or even be touched, by other players. Since ships have mass and should bounce off each other, that would have to be altered, which makes the whole experience too "gamey" and ... oh never mind, option b] just isn't reasonable.

If you want to fight, take it outside. Simple enough.

My attitude is simple.

If it's one vs one i'll watch. (unless circumstances dictate otherwise)
If it's multi vs one i'll join in.
If the odds are just stupid I'll normally steer clear.
If you run at 20%, I might do the same when I'm at 20% if the odds are stupidly against me.
If you do run and I chase you, you can expect me to use nasty tactics like rockets when you're docking.
If you're known to me as a swarm spammer and runner you won't get a warning when I catch you outside the fight.

For the most part I really couldn't care what tactics you use. It might be because I've always got the Sky Command as an option for group battles or because I've spent a lot of time fighting nasty tactics. I'm not really fussed about swarm spammers, runners, group ganking, whatever and I'm glad that most of the people I know in VPR's are good fun to play against.

In fact aside from a couple of pilots, who I'll kill by any means necessary, (swarm runners) and one pilot (not from VPR) who IMO is an amazing hypocrite, I don't really mind fighting anyone.

Wow, i guess that's what happens when time gets the best on me, thanks for taking the time to read my very long post.

I try to discourage running constantly from fights within our guild. It's not fun when that happens. But don't tell me that members of Black Lance don't do the same. I am guilty of working some of your guild mates a bit. I would intentionally take enough hits to convince the player to stay for the whole fight. (sometimes it would work against me, but at least the fight was finished) That and i've run on BLAK members just to show how easy it is to run. Course, it's only a couple of members who run, and still within your ranks.

I can let it go when it happens, and I hope that you can as well. All that i ask is just talk to them and say "That's not cool, man." But do realize, we give a lot of kills to your guild just by being there to combat the well trained pirates. Unfortunately, Holden seems to miss the active times and large scale battles. The dust settles a bit and then Holden logs on. And we're all there glancing at Holden waiting for more pirates to come. Sorry man :)

WOW! I didn't realize I'd stir up such a nest...
*WARNING* you are about to enter an incredibly LONG post...

Out of game:
Okay... first of all, I sincerely appreciate everyone's involvement with this thread. At first, I was concerned that I opened this topic back up... but now (*patting myself on the back*) I think we are getting some very important issues out in the open. It is healthy, and constructive.

Second of all, I want to thank everyone for the patience they have shown me in-game (mates, strangers, NPCs, and pirates alike). I'm a noob, plain and simple - to the whole "gaming" thing. I'm also an old fart... probably twice as old as most of you... and with that, I have a certain thick-skinned approach that simply comes from experiences in life. I've posted in other threads my views/comments... and have gleened information as part of my learning process... and in those threads - I have tried to impart my appreciation to those involved. I do the same now.

Thirdly, I am about to use certain references to other players, albeit *all* positive (no flames here) - without their permission. I hope it is okay... and if not I will gladly retract, followed by a time-out period - standing in the corner.

Lastly, I respect everyone. We are all individuals, with different life experiences. As such, we all bring a different amount of baggage to the game - as should be expected. I've overheard a gozillion different life stories on ch 100... But this is a game. It is impossible to totally remove one's "self" when entering this arena, and I accept that.

Partially In-Game:
Seb: Thanks for bringing the consideration/Sportsmanship/honor thing up... it needs to be addressed... *one* of these days... I'll hand you *your* hat... but until then, I will truly enjoy the battles, and gladly die many times over for the chance to get better... (and as I said in another post, I'll gladly accept all critism/pointers you are willing to provide) yep... you'll definitely see me in-game... :)~

Shape: You bring up some very good issues... although I am a bit confused when you say "You guys like to fight BLAK members" somehow limiting our "Vendetta" to BL only - using the "Zet issue" as the foundation to your point. Zet is not BL. Or is he? (it's hard for me to follow this stuff). When I step back, I actually see most of the "issues" are being introduced as a result of non-BLvsVPR involvement. I was amazed when I first joined the Viper guild to see the actual amount of respect that was afforded between our two guilds. That respect remains, I assure you.

Addressing the Zet issue, I am aware of certain discussion you are not - being a VPR - and I can truly tell you that there was *much* discussion trying to figure that one out. Words were being spoken, but then actions to the contrary taken... in this particular case, the actions spoke louder. I think it is totally resolved now (at least I personally hope so). That's all I have to say about that.

Finally, you say: "Frankly, you're a vigilante gang."... and to a certain point, I simply *have* to agree with you. A vigilante is a person that takes the law into their own hands - outside an established boundary of law. In this case, however, there is *NO* player-based national or universal law. There are Marshalls, and strike force, and other NPC "regulators"... but there is no player-based judicial system outside the guilds themselves. Most of the Viper histories include being a pirated-trader... and we now want to do something about that. :)~ So, yeah... I guess you are right about that... but I don't really want to change that - as it is the *basis* for our guild-to-guild interaction. And it is *fun* (or used to be, and can be again). It's like the wild west again... You say: "You don't have a clear set of well-publicized rules of conduct..."... and all I have to offer is our mission statement publicly provided on our website. Maybe we could start with your guild's "well-publicized rules of conduct", and come to a mutual agreement? :)~

Borb: you wanted examples of the Viper "good will"... well... okay... will you accept excerpts from my logs? (I keep prominent ones, because I try to learn by going back over them afterwards, and have written scripts to parse...) How about this one?

[03/20/05 01:22:54] 00ff00<Seta Ralel> hey Kokan!
[03/20/05 01:23:34] ff0000*Kokan* Hi
[03/20/05 01:24:16] 80ff80->Kokan: just passing through... trading... hope you are having a good time!
[03/20/05 01:24:47] ff0000*Kokan* Doing some trading myself. Peter?
[03/20/05 01:25:38] 80ff80->Kokan: negative, not Peter... sorry.
[03/20/05 01:26:01] 80ff80->Kokan: but if you need anything... let me know...
[03/20/05 01:26:04] ff0000*Kokan* My fault - I should learn my friends character's names...
[03/20/05 01:26:19] 80ff80->Kokan: np...
[03/20/05 01:26:20] ff0000*Kokan* Hope all is going well for you
[03/20/05 01:27:06] 80ff80->Kokan: Very well... thanks.
[03/20/05 01:28:30] 80ff80->Kokan: I'm a Viper ... we're out here protecting the traders... (and trading)
[03/20/05 01:29:01] ff0000*Kokan* Seen your guilde site
[03/20/05 01:29:14] 80ff80->Kokan: so if you need anything... please let me know... okay?
[03/20/05 01:29:30] ff0000*Kokan* Sounds good - thanks for the offer.
[03/20/05 01:29:41] 80ff80->Kokan: w00t!... good, so you are at least aware... :)
[03/20/05 01:30:09] ff0000*Kokan* But I'm doing OK. Had [xxxx]* on my tail this afternoon, but I unloaded some missles on his butt and jumped on...
[03/20/05 01:30:40] 80ff80->Kokan: w00t!... good for you!
[03/20/05 01:31:20] 80ff80->Kokan: [xxxx]* is an interesting bird... :) We're watching... :p
[03/20/05 01:32:21] ff0000*Kokan* I think I'll see about transport escorting pretty soon - just getting cash together for buying back ships if I need to...
[03/20/05 01:34:09] 80ff80->Kokan: rgr that... Vipers don't CtC (as a guild)... but if you need anything,u
[03/20/05 01:34:14] 80ff80->Kokan: just let any of us know.
[03/20/05 01:34:37] ff0000*Kokan* Thanks. Good guarding/hunting!
[03/20/05 01:34:45] 80ff80->Kokan: just ask any of us - [VPR] tags... :) thanks...

Note: [xxxx]* was the only edit to this conversation to protect the party involved - however, this person is not affiliated with any guild - strictly independent... and reenforces my point about the rogues (okay - the *bad* type, not the good type, RogueLaser and MysticRogue) out there that seem to me to be the *real* cause of the problems.

I really wanted the one with "Joyce Sanders" extending a thanks to the Vipers just a couple of days ago on the behalf of the TGFT for "dispatching" another "independent" pirate... but couldn't find it... :p

The Vipers have been having discussion to increase our presence with the other guilds... and to provide free escort services... unfortunately, you are not privy to those discussions... so I understand your "concern". It does, however, exist...

To all:
Finally, the discussion on "running"... I understand that *very* well. First let me preface my discussion with: I am glad to say that I have *never* run from a fight once engaged, since becoming a Viper (I ran *every* time as a trader, however). I gladly get my ship blown out from under me on a regular basis (my stats show this). Initially, it was because the time period was so short between the initial engagement and the conclusion, there was no time to run. I quickly realized that I needed better equipment just to stay *in* the game. So, I bit the bullet, and started leveling. I paid my dues with those stoopid bots simply so that I could acquire the hardware I needed just to stay with it long enough to actually *learn* something. (I have repeatedly said that I believe levels without skill are meaningless - and for the following discussion, I am referring to my favorite ship du jour - SCP w/ dual flare and AGT) I have encountered runners myself, though... and that was really the instigation for my posts to the Prom thread... (I am sure you remember that one). All of a sudden, I am starting to actually win some battles. That was simply an indication that I am slowly gaining the skills necessary to compete. I still have a *long* way to go, however. Then... just as suddenly, I start encountering those folks that run away, crying "foul" when I pull out the flares. Okay... I can understand the discussion on the AGT because there *is* definitely help there... but I feel it is balanced by the lack of capability of the ship itself - but I am yet a noob - pulling my drawers down here (I happen to think the Devs are doing a great job in getting things balanced with the LOE that they are presented with... and I have a soft spot for the Devs)... but flares are another matter... they take effort to get placed just right (and I am just starting to get a feel for them)... and now I am getting asked to "stow" the flares, and just use the AGT. I have *always* obliged when asked... and have usually paid the price (I'm haulin' em... but not usin' em). So out of "fairness"... I still want to compete. And you won't find me running from a fight, once engaged... I will now be a bit more hesitant getting involved, probably... and I don't think that is very good to the game. The Devs would like to see more "teamwork" - teams against teams... and that also means we are going to have to learn *new* tactics. You [BL] folks have a hand up, there... you have a history with that effort, and you've started extending that effort lately... and you should be applauded for that. I do.

This game is *big* fun... especially when Tram brings out his "Turd", or I get to play with teamed Gavan *and* Tram turds... or Martin blows my ship out from under me - uh, actually, I think it was UncleDave... hummm, he's [SoR], isn't he? hummm... - haulin' a Moth full of lux through Sedina... *just* to make things interesting... :)~ I typically don't take things personally... but I *am* a bit sensitive about guild-bashing... especially when I think it is a bit misplaced, or when it possibly involves something that I think maybe I caused... and, bless their hearts, my mates have had to put up with me lately posting like crazy to *our* site in trying to understand this whole mess... (thanks guys)...

BTW, I've just purchased a new stick, so now I have to learn how to fly all over again... and I think I may just create an "alt" (never had one before) to do so... because it is going to require some bot-killing education... but I am not doing that to "avoid" the current situation... I'll be around shortly... :)~

Here is a good one:
[03/20/05 07:43:15] 28b4f0[100]MysticRogue thinks Seta is just a very happy person..hehe

That just happens to be a correct assessment. I look forward to more big fun with you folks... let's keep the discussion up, for the betterment of the game.

In Game:
I'm Seta, of the Clan Ralel. I offer my respect and dedication to the Commander, Lts, and members of the guild Vipers.

I return the floor for futher discussion.

Heh, well technically you did not help him at all. But it's nice to see that at least some of y'all are taking the effort to do so. I have no problem with people or guilds that do what ever, what I don't like are guilds that do some thing they say they don't do. This is one of the reasons I love BLAK, I can do any thing I want there. Back when I was in dWo I really could not do many things other then trading. (though I did play CtC allot) Not that dWo was not a great guild it just was not for me. How ever I don't like a guild that says it has morals and that it is great an all about helping people then all I see them doing is harassing my friends, and then doing underhanded things. (type killing, back-rolling, spamming ect.)

Correct me if I'm wrong but BLAK is the pirate guild we are the evil ones remember. Why are the BLAK guys the ones that end up fighting more fair then VPR? Why we end up having more morals? Now Don't get me wrong I do not hate VPR in any way, they add many fun things to the game, (and my kill count :D ) but I have little respect for the guild as a whole.

All I'm asking is that y'all act like cops. Eh that's not what I want y'all to act like, I live in the hood, the cops here are crap. I want y'all to act like heros, defenders of the traders, fighters for the little man. Not a bunch of rag tag punks with guns who think they know what combat is about but run at 20%.

When I see a VPR tag I lose alotta respect for who ever has that tag in front of their name, that's not how it should be. It should be that when some one see a VPR tag they say "hi" and feel like they have seen a great hero. VPR should be renowned instead of infamous.

Just my feelings on the whole thing.

Note: I made many generalizations in my long post. Not all VPRs are bad I know a few that are cool, but sadly they are but a few among the many that are not cool.

MB :

I am sorry if I didn't know about the runners in BLAK. As you pointed out, I log in later than most usually. Speaking personally, I believe that the worst kind of people are hypocrites : don't accuse people of running if you run yourself. Which is why I don't run, even when the people who kills me are people who often runs on me. Sure it sucks if that happen, but I don't have to give them battle. So when I do, I have to live up to my word. When I get tired of it, I just stop fighting. Like now.

Now, some roleplaying (you don't want to know my alt, he is much more trigger happy than Holden) :

Holden pride himself that he belongs to a guild of people who will fight till the end even against hopeless odds. He is worried that with the increasing frequency of running of both sides, there will be no more honour in battle, just tactics. Perhaps it is time for him to take leave and teach for a bit to bring forth a new generation of warriors.

BorbII: hehe... I guess you're right... but it wasn't for the lack of trying! And I *really* did want to use the one for the TGFT... but just can't find it...

And now, for the record: You're under arrest!... throw down your weapons, and come peacefully! (yelled in a bellowing cop-like, half-scared tone)...

Holden: hummm... just where *do* you hold these training sessions???