Forums » Suggestions
Ooooh, I remember Alamar sitting on the Xith while Itanis futilely trying to kill him...
Hehe. But, the purpose of this thread was to come up with some SIMPLE implementation suggestions, right? It should be an idea that could "scale" to function in essentially the same way as "Phaserlight's Pfabulous Pfaction Sliders."
Inc said: This is just an idea for an initial change to fix the Serco-Itani problem (Serco with high Itani faction and so on).
Inc said: This is just an idea for an initial change to fix the Serco-Itani problem (Serco with high Itani faction and so on).
ok, the short version:
Make the factions mutually exclusive as you suggest, but don't do it before doing something about friendly fire!
Make the factions mutually exclusive as you suggest, but don't do it before doing something about friendly fire!
does this mean that as a UIT pilot.. (currently UIT-KOS) i would automatically be POS with corvus?
if i want to purchase a fleet of proms, i have +900 Serco.. to then add a fleet of valks to my list, i should tank my serco and automatically be loved by the itani?
as karma-scales go, if you are loved by one, you are hated by the other. and vice-versa.
all someone would have to do to buy the nation ships, is kill a station guard and a couple SF's. then fly to the other nation space (where they are already auto-admired/POS) and buy the lot of ships, then do it again when they run out of valks/proms.
having it admire someone with terrible enemy standing may sound right in theory.... in theory, ....
and will this FINALLY have some effect on unnies sitting in station space? or itani convoys in red space?
if i want to purchase a fleet of proms, i have +900 Serco.. to then add a fleet of valks to my list, i should tank my serco and automatically be loved by the itani?
as karma-scales go, if you are loved by one, you are hated by the other. and vice-versa.
all someone would have to do to buy the nation ships, is kill a station guard and a couple SF's. then fly to the other nation space (where they are already auto-admired/POS) and buy the lot of ships, then do it again when they run out of valks/proms.
having it admire someone with terrible enemy standing may sound right in theory.... in theory, ....
and will this FINALLY have some effect on unnies sitting in station space? or itani convoys in red space?
doak said: if i want to purchase a fleet of proms, i have +900 Serco.. to then add a fleet of valks to my list, i should tank my serco and automatically be loved by the itani? As karma-scales go, if you are loved by one, you are hated by the other. and vice-versa. All someone would have to do to buy the nation ships, is kill a station guard and a couple SF's. then fly to the other nation space (where they are already auto-admired/POS) and buy the lot of ships, then do it again when they run out of valks/proms.
Nah that's no good. Tanking one standing would not automatically RAISE anything, at least the way I see it. You've just pissed off another nation in addition to the other one. It's not a see-saw effect. In a more effective solution downroad, I think it would be beneficial to have at least a "slight" positive effect on the opposing faction, but nothing earth-shattering. But for now, the "simple" option I think is still Phaserlight's sliders idea, where there are limits on how much BOTH factions can be as far as high, but no limits on how LOW they can go. As in, there's a combined faction ceiling but no floor.
and will this FINALLY have some effect on unnies sitting in station space? or itani convoys in red space?
Yeah some realism would be nice. Itani convoys should be shot down if they enter Geira, Serco convoys should be shot up if they enter Deneb. Maybe there's a role for UIT convoys here in Deneb/Geira. Unaligned bots should be public enemy #1 in nationspace and the station guards should pursue them as if they were KOS with that nation. If players kill them you should get positive faction points for that nation/faction.
Nah that's no good. Tanking one standing would not automatically RAISE anything, at least the way I see it. You've just pissed off another nation in addition to the other one. It's not a see-saw effect. In a more effective solution downroad, I think it would be beneficial to have at least a "slight" positive effect on the opposing faction, but nothing earth-shattering. But for now, the "simple" option I think is still Phaserlight's sliders idea, where there are limits on how much BOTH factions can be as far as high, but no limits on how LOW they can go. As in, there's a combined faction ceiling but no floor.
and will this FINALLY have some effect on unnies sitting in station space? or itani convoys in red space?
Yeah some realism would be nice. Itani convoys should be shot down if they enter Geira, Serco convoys should be shot up if they enter Deneb. Maybe there's a role for UIT convoys here in Deneb/Geira. Unaligned bots should be public enemy #1 in nationspace and the station guards should pursue them as if they were KOS with that nation. If players kill them you should get positive faction points for that nation/faction.
so what you are saying is; it's in effect it when you positively interact with a nation. so it's a saw-saw, not a see-saw.
|-----|-----|
::that's a karma scale::
|-----o-----|Serco +0
|-----o-----|Itani +0
staring out neutral, (UIT's case) you can not buy anything special at either nation space.
|o----|-----|Serco -700
|-----|----o|Itani +700
gaining Itani faction would automatically tank your serco standing. in most cases... (now) anything past -699 is pretty much unrecoverable without a great deal of trouble. especially if it's a corp. faction.
|o----|-----|Serco -700
|o----|-----|Itani +700
so let's say you now tank your Itani standing leaving both in the negative. (not recommended: 20/30 useless systems, and no more deneb run...) if you were to gain 300 standing points in red space, you would automatically be concidered KOS in blue. (-700 - 300 = -1000)
yet you would still only be -400 with Serco.
|--o--|-----|Serco -400
o-----|-----|Itani -1000 (KOS)
i see why this should work, but it really requires a total restart... all existing characters deleted, everyone starts from scratch.
|-----|-----|
::that's a karma scale::
|-----o-----|Serco +0
|-----o-----|Itani +0
staring out neutral, (UIT's case) you can not buy anything special at either nation space.
|o----|-----|Serco -700
|-----|----o|Itani +700
gaining Itani faction would automatically tank your serco standing. in most cases... (now) anything past -699 is pretty much unrecoverable without a great deal of trouble. especially if it's a corp. faction.
|o----|-----|Serco -700
|o----|-----|Itani +700
so let's say you now tank your Itani standing leaving both in the negative. (not recommended: 20/30 useless systems, and no more deneb run...) if you were to gain 300 standing points in red space, you would automatically be concidered KOS in blue. (-700 - 300 = -1000)
yet you would still only be -400 with Serco.
|--o--|-----|Serco -400
o-----|-----|Itani -1000 (KOS)
i see why this should work, but it really requires a total restart... all existing characters deleted, everyone starts from scratch.
and TBH, nothing should excuse you from KOS... once KOS always KOS.
how do you redeem yourself by botting, in a faction that would rather spend money on weapons/ammo than sell a ship to you or trade.
how do you redeem yourself by botting, in a faction that would rather spend money on weapons/ammo than sell a ship to you or trade.
go back and look at the graphs I posted earlier, Doakster.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/15706#198293
Those were kinda the compilation of a much earlier discussion on the boards regarding this same issue.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11492?page=2#137077
The idea is that you can't be liked or respected or admired by BOTH Itani and Serco, but you can definitely be HATED by both. The reason for this revision of the faction standing system is to find a way to prevent people from being able to buy both SCP's/SVG's -AND- Valks/IBG's. It just makes sense.
I don't think existing players need to worry about starting over. Starting with Itani-Serco, the faction rules can be phased in slowly; allowing those who have high standing with BOTH factions to essentially make a choice, to choose sides. The next opposing faction change would probably be UIT-Corvus I guess, and so on down the line.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/15706#198293
Those were kinda the compilation of a much earlier discussion on the boards regarding this same issue.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11492?page=2#137077
The idea is that you can't be liked or respected or admired by BOTH Itani and Serco, but you can definitely be HATED by both. The reason for this revision of the faction standing system is to find a way to prevent people from being able to buy both SCP's/SVG's -AND- Valks/IBG's. It just makes sense.
I don't think existing players need to worry about starting over. Starting with Itani-Serco, the faction rules can be phased in slowly; allowing those who have high standing with BOTH factions to essentially make a choice, to choose sides. The next opposing faction change would probably be UIT-Corvus I guess, and so on down the line.
Will UIT get a cool trading ship only UIT can get the standing to buy? Possibly tweak the UIT Maud stats appropriately?
your charts went the wrong way in a couple cases...
you made them go "positive" in both cases...
serco went from -600 to -500, and itani went from +500 to +600
that didnt make any real sense to me... so i went over it again.
you made them go "positive" in both cases...
serco went from -600 to -500, and itani went from +500 to +600
that didnt make any real sense to me... so i went over it again.
I was waking up this morning and I had another idea, maybe it helps maybe it doesn't.
We've agreed that it is weird to be able to earn KOS with your enemy and then shoot hive bots to get it back. Because lets face it, no matter what Joe Itan does after blowing up the Nemesis, Sercos are not going to change their mind based upon hive bots. We've also established that over long periods of time, people forget things in favor of more present threats. So my proposal is the following:
To put it in short version, 'norm' the negative standings to dislike, and do not allow actions to improve them. Only time spent without offense.
Bob earns his KOS Itani by pasting a half dozen pilots right in front of Eo's Garden. Then he stops playing for months. When he returns, he will find to his frustration that the Itani have forgotten about him, and he is merely disliked. He'll have to step it up if he wants the prestige of KOS.
Jack, Bob's closest friend, tanked his BioCom standing by station-killing an Itani. He wants to earn BioCom back, but they won't hear his pleas until he gives them several months of good behavior.
Tim is a guildie of Jack and Bob. He spends x month(s) time without offending the Itani after earning himself KOS, so now he is -900. Then he shoots a CTC convoy, a rather minor offense (-920). For the next month, his standing with the Itani will not increase a point due to his offense.
The real key, assuming people like this idea, is the rate of recovery. We're looking at 400 points of standing. How long would it be before today's threats outweigh those of the past? For discussion, I'll just say 100 points a month, thus 4 months to get disliked from KOS (aka forgotten).
All artificial faction changing is gone with this method. I'd pair it with what has already been discussed, such that you'd need Itani admired and Serco hated to buy a valk. I'd even go so far as to say SCP/IDFVV require POS+enemy hated, but this is not the point of my post.
We've agreed that it is weird to be able to earn KOS with your enemy and then shoot hive bots to get it back. Because lets face it, no matter what Joe Itan does after blowing up the Nemesis, Sercos are not going to change their mind based upon hive bots. We've also established that over long periods of time, people forget things in favor of more present threats. So my proposal is the following:
To put it in short version, 'norm' the negative standings to dislike, and do not allow actions to improve them. Only time spent without offense.
Bob earns his KOS Itani by pasting a half dozen pilots right in front of Eo's Garden. Then he stops playing for months. When he returns, he will find to his frustration that the Itani have forgotten about him, and he is merely disliked. He'll have to step it up if he wants the prestige of KOS.
Jack, Bob's closest friend, tanked his BioCom standing by station-killing an Itani. He wants to earn BioCom back, but they won't hear his pleas until he gives them several months of good behavior.
Tim is a guildie of Jack and Bob. He spends x month(s) time without offending the Itani after earning himself KOS, so now he is -900. Then he shoots a CTC convoy, a rather minor offense (-920). For the next month, his standing with the Itani will not increase a point due to his offense.
The real key, assuming people like this idea, is the rate of recovery. We're looking at 400 points of standing. How long would it be before today's threats outweigh those of the past? For discussion, I'll just say 100 points a month, thus 4 months to get disliked from KOS (aka forgotten).
All artificial faction changing is gone with this method. I'd pair it with what has already been discussed, such that you'd need Itani admired and Serco hated to buy a valk. I'd even go so far as to say SCP/IDFVV require POS+enemy hated, but this is not the point of my post.
I like Aramarth's idea--it's an interesting twist on terjekv's concept. Instead of having to continuously work to keep your standing up, you have to work to keep it down.*
It'd be interesting if different offenses took different amounts of time to recover from; perhaps killing a station guard would be 75 standing points per month, a strike force 100 points per month, and trade convoy or other player (at a station of the given faction) 125 points per month.
Then, of course, there's the issue of what to do if you keep killing that faction's personnel while you're already KOS. Do you just ignore it? Or do you have a hidden "below KOS" modifier that you also have to work off before you see any changes in your standing? And what of multiple offenses? Should the average of the offenses' "standing recharge rates" be used to determine how fast or slow your standing rises? Or something else entirely, like just taking the slowest value of all of the offenses in the list?
For Serco and Itani, this sort of thing might be best if all of the recharge rates were halved at least, possibly even quartered. The Serco are definitely not likely to let any Itani in their borders, and while the Itani are probably more receptive to peaceful Serco, for the purposes of the game's mechanics it'd be easier to have the same scale for both sides.
More when I get back from class.
*: There's a pun in there somewhere and it isn't intended.
It'd be interesting if different offenses took different amounts of time to recover from; perhaps killing a station guard would be 75 standing points per month, a strike force 100 points per month, and trade convoy or other player (at a station of the given faction) 125 points per month.
Then, of course, there's the issue of what to do if you keep killing that faction's personnel while you're already KOS. Do you just ignore it? Or do you have a hidden "below KOS" modifier that you also have to work off before you see any changes in your standing? And what of multiple offenses? Should the average of the offenses' "standing recharge rates" be used to determine how fast or slow your standing rises? Or something else entirely, like just taking the slowest value of all of the offenses in the list?
For Serco and Itani, this sort of thing might be best if all of the recharge rates were halved at least, possibly even quartered. The Serco are definitely not likely to let any Itani in their borders, and while the Itani are probably more receptive to peaceful Serco, for the purposes of the game's mechanics it'd be easier to have the same scale for both sides.
More when I get back from class.
*: There's a pun in there somewhere and it isn't intended.
Lol, it was funny, though.
I think that for the first few times, it should be easier to gain faction by actually killing Itani to raise serco standings, that makes more sense. Both sides know us UITS to be go-in-betweens, so we should be able to raise faction easier, by just killing itani or doing speical missions. The itani should need some special missions if they want to defect, which would increse RP value, and how you can change factions. If you defect via a mission before tanking your itani standing, you should automaticly start at the docking level with serco.
Or something like that.
I think that for the first few times, it should be easier to gain faction by actually killing Itani to raise serco standings, that makes more sense. Both sides know us UITS to be go-in-betweens, so we should be able to raise faction easier, by just killing itani or doing speical missions. The itani should need some special missions if they want to defect, which would increse RP value, and how you can change factions. If you defect via a mission before tanking your itani standing, you should automaticly start at the docking level with serco.
Or something like that.
doak said: your charts went the wrong way in a couple cases...you made them go "positive" in both cases...
serco went from -600 to -500, and itani went from +500 to +600 - that didnt make any real sense to me... so i went over it again.
Hrm, doak, put down the pipe. And try one more time. Perhaps I didn't make the graph simple enough, it's my fault for not being clearer.
At no point in the graphs does the Serco standing raise. The green bar representes the "potential" of it (or of Itani standing) rising. It starts out at 200 worth of potential rise before negative consequences set in. Think of the green bar as the "slack" in a string. It's at -600 until the example Itani character raises his Itani standing above +700 to +800, which necessitates a drop in Serco standing to keep the "Serco-Itani Faction Constant" at 100.
serco went from -600 to -500, and itani went from +500 to +600 - that didnt make any real sense to me... so i went over it again.
Hrm, doak, put down the pipe. And try one more time. Perhaps I didn't make the graph simple enough, it's my fault for not being clearer.
At no point in the graphs does the Serco standing raise. The green bar representes the "potential" of it (or of Itani standing) rising. It starts out at 200 worth of potential rise before negative consequences set in. Think of the green bar as the "slack" in a string. It's at -600 until the example Itani character raises his Itani standing above +700 to +800, which necessitates a drop in Serco standing to keep the "Serco-Itani Faction Constant" at 100.
Stop keepin' the man down, M'haru.
Gods damn it, no f'ing missions to play hacky sack with your standings!
[I, Dr. Lector, will not post innuendo or insult other players in the forum]
I, random and obnoxious FM/guide/dev, will learn to spell "Lecter", even though it's hard for me to do so. Fucker =P
I, random and obnoxious FM/guide/dev, will learn to spell "Lecter", even though it's hard for me to do so. Fucker =P
give Miharu a break… come on, how old are yous…
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lol leber