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Border Defenses - Feedback

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Sep 03, 2008 incarnate link
Wow, lots of feedback, very cool.

A couple of points:

Changing major Nation Capitols from Monitored to Guarded is necessary to protect newbies once friendly fire is dropped. The whole reason "friendly fire" existed in the first place was to prevent team-killing and other unsociable behaviour, which has since been outweighed by the negative impacts of that gameplay decision. Ie, someone creates a character, and immediately goes and shoots the other newbies. Since I'm not just going to ban "shooting newbies" (since that opens up a whole other can of worms as far as "what is a newbie" and problems with exploitation of special newbie protections and such).. I have to create universal repercussions for killing friendly players in Nation space.. ie, the faction system. Via the system, players who are seen to be killing members friendly to the nation will be deported to some grayspace station (if homed in the nation) for various lengths of time (maybe temp KoS for a few days, then for a few weeks, then for a few months, if they keep doing it over and over). Yes, I know there are lots of "what ifs" in this scenario, but I don't really want to get into a discussion of all that right now. Let's keep this just about defenses for the moment.

Moving right along.. if deportation is considered to be a valid mechanic for restricting more murderous and unsavory characters from nation space, there must also be some reasonable mechanism preventing said players from coming back in and continuing to kill people. At least, it has to be difficult. Hence, border defenses and such.

It is important to note that simply because border defenses exist, does not exclude other mechanisms to subvert them. Ie, black-market "Nation" indicators that only work while weapons are offline, that sort of thing. The point being, lots of cool stuff is possible, as long as it's possible to exert enough of a balance of difficulty that the newbie population is not overwhelmingly endangered.

The same is true of making nation Capitols guarded instead of monitored (as an FYI, I think most of the Capitol systems are already Guarded). Yes, this does mean that (excluding some form of stealth or other sensor-fooling device) Lecter might have a strike force hounding him throughout the system, but it doesn't exclude him from being able to still attack people. It does not create "absolute safety" by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, it may result in an overall situation that is still "less safe" than what we have currently.. as friendly-fire conditions may persist from players who simply create new characters over and over again to hunt newbies (other solutions exist to this, but discussion is beyond the scope of this topic.. Border Defenses). Additionally, Lecter may hunt newbies to his heart's content in say, Cantus, Metana, Nyrius, Dantia, and so on.. as long as he's willing to jump around a little to avoid any SFs that eventually show up.

It's also noteworthy that the Hive will not exist in nation Capitol systems.. and actually doesn't already. Yes, we have the older static bots in those locales, who use the same ship models and behaviour, but are not actually tied together and experience no dynamic change in expansion. They will be replaced with a combination of non-rogue mining drones and various "training drone" ships. All three Hives, as they currently exist, are placed in locations where they cannot possibly overlap with major Nation Capitols, to explicitly prevent them from impinging on newbie territories. Game design is ever a juggling attempt at balancing the "real" with the "unreal" to create a universe that is dynamic and interesting, but also approachable by someone who is new; because if we made it just like the real world.. it would be about as fun as Life. And life in a land divided by war is not a hell of a lot of fun.

Back to the subject at hand.. Border Defenses are philosophically a good idea for the game, I think. Much interesting conflict can be created by erecting walls, and then finding intriguing ways of punching holes in them. Look at, say, cold-war Berlin, which has been fodder for more spy stories (both real and imagined) than probably any other period. Look at any major period that yielded a lot of interesting drama.. Elizabethan England, the Three Kingdoms period of China, always a lot of people sneaking around trying to pull off some kind of machinations, fighting with the Powers that Be, or using those conflicts as a backdrop for their stories.

As an example, what would really be the value of putting in a stealth addon, at present? I mean, anyone can go anywhere as it is, you can be PoS with all three factions. It would probably provide some amusement to pirates, and maybe safety to traders if it were applicable to them, but it would be more of a diversion, a feature searching for a use. Now consider the "new universe" of borders and walls, fleets and factions at war, Serco/Itani standing exclusivity (one OR the other), and so on. All of a sudden concepts like Stealth start to have really valid, interesting uses, that might outweigh the obvious balance problems that surround them.

Anyway, please continue the feedback, I'm appreciating it. Let's try and keep this on topic - Border Defenses. I thought any digressions from the topic I made above were reasonable to explain the kind of larger philosophy and intent behind the direction, which would hopefully salve some concerns. But, let's try and keep on the Border Defense thing, moving forward.

[EDIT] One final note: Yes, grayspace is the place for pirates to exist with impunity. This is why it was created, and frankly grayspace will only get bigger (especially with player stations and such).. so, I don't think that's bad. No you won't be allowed to hunt people in the suburbs without repercussion, you have to go to the Wild West to do that. On the upside, most of the awesome, desired minerals and ores and things will also be located in grayspace, so lots of people will risk it.
Sep 03, 2008 Dr. Lecter link
Ah, Inc. knows me all too well. As for "hunt[ing] newbies to [my] heart's content," I look forward to it.
Sep 03, 2008 vardonx link
To Scuba Steve's point...

I made it IN to Verasi in a Centaur...not the fastest ship in the fleet.

It took me 4 tries in an Atlas X to make it back OUT. 2 of the 3 times I was killed by missiles still 500 m from the wh. The 3rd time by guass whilest jumping. The 4th time I made it out with 23% hull left.
Sep 03, 2008 missioncreek2 link
Incarnate spoke of the intrigue created by walls. Part of that intrigue is created by players having tangable property behind that wall which would be put at risk by the pilots on the other side. I look forward to persistant player owned property that sits in space and has strategic value. That would be a motivation to keep enemy pilots out.

Currently there is no strategic space, so these borders are for noob protection only. Experienced players seek each other out to fight!
Sep 03, 2008 look... no hands link
Personally I don't care if all the empty sectors in Dau were monitored. I don't use them. I use corporate stations.

"It always seemed to me that pirates should be bound to grey space"

The only reason I started going into UIT space to hunt is because their rarely are traders in Grey, or at least their are (were) tons more in UIT space.

As for how hard it is to get in or out, once it becomes neigh impossible to traverse the border, I'll just use two characters, probably on two accounts, one permanently inside UIT space and one outside. Or I'll find some way to flood the sector with decoys (tons of trials maybe), not sure how yet, but I'll manage.
Sep 03, 2008 incarnate link
Well, I am moving towards more mechanics that drive people into grayspace, such as the resource re-allocation and the like (placing lots of valuable minerals and ores there). Plus, as we re-tune the economy, those stations will likely become more lucrative routes, driving traders there. Etc.

I don't want to bind any group to any place, I just want to create areas with various tradeoffs.

[EDIT]: Another analogy: Grayspace becomes kind of the "new world" of the 16th century, where all the treasure fleets come back from. Nation space is more of the "old world". Pirates preyed on those treasure fleets that went to and fro.
Sep 04, 2008 Phish link
I could never understand why stations don't actually have turrets. I mean, Capital Ships
have turrets, and they're like stations, heck even NPC Moths have turrets, but Stations?
No, they get these weird floating guns. Huh? Anyways...

Actually, going along with that, I think it would be interesting if a) the floating turrets
actually... floated, or at least drifted, around the sector, maybe moving from point to
point in a sort of "defense grid" or b) were attached to something. Rocks, Ice crystals or
even the station. Floating guns that get hit by energy or a projectile aren't gonna just
sit there. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Sep 04, 2008 Azumi link
Inc, as noted by Scuba Steve, Vardonx and myself, it is much harder to get OUT of nation space than get IN. Could you run some tests (I'll run it repeatedly myself if need be) where you put the defences on the opposite side of the wormhole?

That would still protect the traders on the inside and make it hard to get in, not out.
Sep 04, 2008 missioncreek2 link
Heres a shipyard idea to give those border defenses something besides noobs to protect.

http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/19575#245316
Sep 04, 2008 incarnate link
Yeah, I'll check on the whole inside/outside thing, and perhaps experiment with distributing the turrets a little differently.

Some people were saying how turrets on the other side of the wormhole "border" make no sense.. but there's already the UIT Barracks station in Ukari L2, and the Serco station in Helios B7. Those are major-nation stations located technically in grayspace, but on the remote side of their border wormholes.

Phish: the problem with putting capship type turrets on stations is their limited field of view and fire, and the fact that stations come in all sorts of contorted shapes. It's possible to do that, but the floating turrets are more effective and have a wider field of view. The floating turrets do actually move (or they used to, anyway, and destroyed ones would be replaced by new ones flying out from the station), but they are pretty massive. The floating turrets definitely could use a new, larger mesh, but I've been using what I have for the moment.
Sep 04, 2008 smittens link
Um a question, with it becoming so impossible to get out of nation space when hated (and difficult to make it in in the first place) will this mean Itani are going to have to go all the way around through Itani and gray space (rather than through Serco) when going from Deneb to Gray? As it is, this a long enough journey, and should blue be forced through the extended route while Serco maintain the trip through their homeland with impunity...

Well itll just be kinda annoying :)
Sep 04, 2008 incarnate link
What? Do you mean like.. after a border skirmish between two nations at war, do the Itani get to go through their enemy's territory in order to return to grayspace, or some such? I mean, they could, but one would think the Serco wouldn't really like it. Why would that happen?

The whole "long range transport" thing is certainly a legitimate issue, with various suggestions from special super-fast weaponless ships, to jumping onboard a passenger cruiser, to unusual wormholes between major areas. But solutions to that problem are all aside from the point of.. the Serco and Itani being at war. Neither side is likely to take kindly to visitors from the other.
Sep 04, 2008 Aramarth link
The Itani regularly run Serco space as their highway to grey, Incarnate. This is what smit is referring to. The fact that they do it so regularly, and that you didn't know, just further indicates how badly the changes you're making have been needed. Please don't pull any punches on the border defenses- the stronger they are, the better imho.
Sep 04, 2008 ryan reign link
Im going to try an analogy for the whole getying in getting out thing.

when i was younger I used to hitch hike alot. some times a patrolman would pick me up and drive me to the city limits,let me out and wait a bit to make sure I kept going the same way.

city=system
road=worm hole
patrolman=turrets
me=shop leaving

see the patrolman made it pretty easy to leave, because once I was no longer in his city, I was no longer his problem. he stayed on the city limits a while to make sure I didnt come back, thus making it harder to enter.

once on assignment, I saw state police setting up road blocks outside a small New Hampshire town to keep a large group of bikers out of town.

the Great Wall of China made it hard for Huns to get into China.

I definately think there should be turrets station side to protect stations and players but it just seems more practical to try and keep hostiles out rathyer than blast them once they are inside. besides with Helios B-7 and Ukari L-2 there are actually nation stations there already and it makes sense that a station outside of its own space guarding the way in would want to be well defended, as would the government running thst station.

I understand some player pirates would take umbrage with this as it would interfere with player/NPC convoys being pirated. however, nation worm holes are just the first step into grey there are other worm holes to camp.
Sep 04, 2008 missioncreek2 link
The border defenses could respond differently to kos players coming from different places. KOS players entering a nation thru the wormhole would be attacked with intent to destroy. Players entering the WH sector from any other sector would also be attacked, but the attack would stop short of killing them. [this is the police officer who dropped you off at the edge of town]

Here is the best idea to solve the "long range transport problem" that Incarnate identified as a legitimate issue.

A wormhole between Deneb and Latos
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/19063
Sep 04, 2008 smittens link
Aramanth is right by what I meant...sorry if it wasn't clear I'm in a habit of posting when I should be sleeping...

But if you're going to up the border defenses, and make a trip through Serco space impossible (which I'm not saying is a bad thing, RP wise it makes total sense), I really think Itani need some other way to get between action in gray (sedina/latos) and Deneb (for BS and BP etc). It would be quite the burn on Itani to force us to go through 14 systems compared to the Serco 8 whenever fighting changes locations.
Sep 04, 2008 Dr. Lecter link
I really think Itani need some other way to get between action in gray (sedina/latos) and Deneb (for BS and BP etc). It would be quite the burn on Itani to force us to go through 14 systems compared to the Serco 8 whenever fighting changes locations.

Wait . . . you mean there could be a natural disadvantage to having almost twice as many systems as the Serco, as well as a lot of advantages??

Sep 04, 2008 Surbius link
Smittens: Isn't that the primary reason for the Valkyrie, besides running around elsewhere?
Sep 04, 2008 Dr. Lecter link
Isn't that the primary reason for the Valkyrie, besides running around elsewhere?

Surb, that sentence is exactly two words too long.
Sep 04, 2008 Pointsman link
I finally managed to log in and check out the new defenses and I had no problems going in or out with my hog2. I didn't try with any other ships. I liked the cumulative effect of all the beeping and glowing balls of death, though. Ambient danger is something I would be happy to see more of in the game.