Forums » Suggestions
The UIT as a whole has no "Excellent" combat ships like the Valkryie X-1/IDF or the SCP, there are ships that are very good and come close to the mark such as the Warthog Territorial Defender, Corvus Vulture and Orion Rev C. I've toyed around with the idea of how one might buff or "fix" the Raptor/UDV so that it compares to either of the aformentioned Itani/Serco premier ships, however I thought perhaps the UIT could be better in a different way to either faction in it's major overall theme and nature. So I thought "What if UIT citizens were entitled to buying a UIT Goliath from it's Capital Station at Dau L-10?"
And here are its statistics
----------------------------------------
UIT Goliath
License Requirements: 5/5/9/10/-
Armour: 600,000
Shield: 30,000
Cargo: 600cu
Weapons: 1L, 3T
Mass: 2,350,000kg
Length: 120m
Thrust: 15,000 Nm
Max Speed: 40m/s
Spin Torque: 6,000Nm
Turbo Speed: 140m/s
Turbo Energy 45/s
Turbo Thrust: 18000N
-----------------------------------------
This Goliath is identical to the manufactured variant but comes with certain downsides. I realise that granting UIT players this crucial end game stepping stone to the trident may be considered to be controversial and I understand that. But it does come with some caveats
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
O) The UIT Goliath would come at the cost of 30million (or more for balance reasons) credits every time you wished to replace it, as that would be the purchase price
O) You cannot disassemble the UIT Goliath for parts in Latos M-7
O)The manufactured version, once made would be much less costly to replace.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please feel encouraged to give your honest opinion if this would be a fair advantage for the UIT. However I'll answer some of the obvious questions I can imagine
But why would UIT players have access to the Goliath as opposed to the other factions?
=================================
TPG is the creator and manufacturer of Capital Ships being in the UIT Senate they would be willing to sell their proprietary trade vessel to UIT citizens, but far less likely to sell to an Itani or Serco.
How would this effect the universe as a whole with the UIT being able to buy Capital Ships directly?
=================================
My hope is that with this trade advantage you may see more Greyspace trading as the Odia > Sol II Corvus trades become more efficient and safer.. but of course that may also mean increased piracy of goods as the reward for plundering becomes greater. All good things in my book.
Would this effect the balance of power in Capital Ship battles?
======================================
Since the Goliath isn't exactly what I'd call a "Warship" due to it's lacking shields I don't think it could contest other capital ships or bombers for long. However it is the stepping stone to the Trident so the UIT may get a production advantage, as it possibly should have been from the start.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So is this a good idea for a UIT trade/manufacturing advantage? Yes, it's brilliant or "NO YOU MADMAN WHAT WERE YOU THINKING???"
Either way you're inclined I'd like to hear your thoughts (and if this totally crashes and burns I'm going to start thinking about how to rework the Raptor...)
And here are its statistics
----------------------------------------
UIT Goliath
License Requirements: 5/5/9/10/-
Armour: 600,000
Shield: 30,000
Cargo: 600cu
Weapons: 1L, 3T
Mass: 2,350,000kg
Length: 120m
Thrust: 15,000 Nm
Max Speed: 40m/s
Spin Torque: 6,000Nm
Turbo Speed: 140m/s
Turbo Energy 45/s
Turbo Thrust: 18000N
-----------------------------------------
This Goliath is identical to the manufactured variant but comes with certain downsides. I realise that granting UIT players this crucial end game stepping stone to the trident may be considered to be controversial and I understand that. But it does come with some caveats
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
O) The UIT Goliath would come at the cost of 30million (or more for balance reasons) credits every time you wished to replace it, as that would be the purchase price
O) You cannot disassemble the UIT Goliath for parts in Latos M-7
O)The manufactured version, once made would be much less costly to replace.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please feel encouraged to give your honest opinion if this would be a fair advantage for the UIT. However I'll answer some of the obvious questions I can imagine
But why would UIT players have access to the Goliath as opposed to the other factions?
=================================
TPG is the creator and manufacturer of Capital Ships being in the UIT Senate they would be willing to sell their proprietary trade vessel to UIT citizens, but far less likely to sell to an Itani or Serco.
How would this effect the universe as a whole with the UIT being able to buy Capital Ships directly?
=================================
My hope is that with this trade advantage you may see more Greyspace trading as the Odia > Sol II Corvus trades become more efficient and safer.. but of course that may also mean increased piracy of goods as the reward for plundering becomes greater. All good things in my book.
Would this effect the balance of power in Capital Ship battles?
======================================
Since the Goliath isn't exactly what I'd call a "Warship" due to it's lacking shields I don't think it could contest other capital ships or bombers for long. However it is the stepping stone to the Trident so the UIT may get a production advantage, as it possibly should have been from the start.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So is this a good idea for a UIT trade/manufacturing advantage? Yes, it's brilliant or "NO YOU MADMAN WHAT WERE YOU THINKING???"
Either way you're inclined I'd like to hear your thoughts (and if this totally crashes and burns I'm going to start thinking about how to rework the Raptor...)
Would this Goliath be available to f2p players as well? If so you're devaluing the lite subscription big time. Not making it available to f2p is equally bad since you're basically making UIT the only nation where the factional ship is behind a paywall.
How would this effect the universe as a whole with the UIT being able to buy Capital Ships directly?
I believe that is answered in this thread.
I believe that is answered in this thread.
I had made a suggestion based on changeing the udv to a tpg only pos ship, and makeing a new hauler subcapitol ship based off of the serco prom with all weapons removed and armor striped in exchange for a huge cargo hold. Like a more extreme version of a xc. I thonk makeing a goli purchasable for only 30mill is a undercut to everyone makeing goli kits for amlost a billion
If you think UDV needs a buff you have not seen one in hands of a real skilled player. It shreds anything in seconds with those double mega Positrons. No other ship stands even a slightest chance if udv pilot knows what & how to do & is good at it. It's the games best hunting vessel available. It is perfect the way it is imo. - no skyprom does not survive that ridiculous damage output.
If you want to buff, buff the normal raptors but that's a different suggestion.
-1 to purchasable capships.
If you want to buff, buff the normal raptors but that's a different suggestion.
-1 to purchasable capships.
Sid123 - That's a good point, I hadn't actually thought about the lite subscription interaction.
Flying squirrle - I like that idea too, a bigger sub-capital hauler would also go quite the distance
TJ - You're right, a highly skilled pilot in a UDV can shred anyone! But the same pilot is likely to do far better in any other ship, especially the ships I mentioned at the beginning of my post, two of which are locked to different nations.
Flying squirrle - I like that idea too, a bigger sub-capital hauler would also go quite the distance
TJ - You're right, a highly skilled pilot in a UDV can shred anyone! But the same pilot is likely to do far better in any other ship, especially the ships I mentioned at the beginning of my post, two of which are locked to different nations.
+0.75
I just don't like the idea of "you are UIT. Have your easy capship"
I suggest changing licences to 10/10/10/10/- , adding badge wall (vet. hive III, queen III, levi II, basic trader IV) and standing wall (PoS with every faction except for itani and serco)
And there the fun will begin. Third wall will be extremely hard mission tree available once you get through two first requirement "walls". First mission will be something like "UIT Elite forces signup". You just pay 1mil and get access to next 8-10 missions like "clear entire queen escort without warping out" or "survive and kill wave of 5 arklans" aborting or failing any of the test missions will take you to first one (with a 7 day cooldown). When you finish all of them you would be able to buy 2 goliaths (through 2 separate missions) and 1 month cooldown until this mission tree will respawn will start.
Obviously because there is no insurance this will be freemium capship
I just don't like the idea of "you are UIT. Have your easy capship"
I suggest changing licences to 10/10/10/10/- , adding badge wall (vet. hive III, queen III, levi II, basic trader IV) and standing wall (PoS with every faction except for itani and serco)
And there the fun will begin. Third wall will be extremely hard mission tree available once you get through two first requirement "walls". First mission will be something like "UIT Elite forces signup". You just pay 1mil and get access to next 8-10 missions like "clear entire queen escort without warping out" or "survive and kill wave of 5 arklans" aborting or failing any of the test missions will take you to first one (with a 7 day cooldown). When you finish all of them you would be able to buy 2 goliaths (through 2 separate missions) and 1 month cooldown until this mission tree will respawn will start.
Obviously because there is no insurance this will be freemium capship
-1
The UDV is both unique and comparably strong to the X-1 and SCP, so the premise of this thread that UIT doesn't have a special ship is just wrong.
Even UIT needed something else though, a separate path to get a capship isn't it. Capship construction is a core part of the game and just giving one faction the ability to purchase a capship goes against that pretty hard. There could be other pathways to capship parts that don't just involve manu and farming, but they should definitely be available to all factions and it should definitely not just be paying straight up credits for a capship.
The UDV is both unique and comparably strong to the X-1 and SCP, so the premise of this thread that UIT doesn't have a special ship is just wrong.
Even UIT needed something else though, a separate path to get a capship isn't it. Capship construction is a core part of the game and just giving one faction the ability to purchase a capship goes against that pretty hard. There could be other pathways to capship parts that don't just involve manu and farming, but they should definitely be available to all factions and it should definitely not just be paying straight up credits for a capship.
The Valkyrie and SCP are a product of frontline battles whereas UDV is a result of escorting convoys. You just need to buy enough time for the convoys to warp so a drawn out battle is simply unnecessary. Simply put, the UIT has no need of an equivalent of a valk or an scp and hence there is no such ship.
>there are ships that are very good and come close to the mark such as the Warthog Territorial Defender, Corvus Vulture and Orion Rev C
They are just as good and are merciless because they don't make up for the lack of skill of the pilot.
>there are ships that are very good and come close to the mark such as the Warthog Territorial Defender, Corvus Vulture and Orion Rev C
They are just as good and are merciless because they don't make up for the lack of skill of the pilot.
-1. The UDV is a fantastic combat vessel. It may not be as easy to fly as an X-1, or as tanky as a Prom. However, after flying all 3 independently, I can say it's not unbalanced. Use your profile well and keep it light (comon 2 frakin megaposi? Hell yea!)
Yah, I remember similar threads asserting the UDV is not as good as the X1/SCP. Others have said that the UDV is just not built for the reasons the X1/SCP are also (completely agree). The UDV is a great escort ship built for escorts and defending UIT's convoys. IT IS NOT an advanced front line fighter hull like the X1/Prom. This has been hashed out in other threads with dev input. What UIT loses in terms of combat hulls gains in things like unique weapons, increased trade, strategic location. Also being neutral is a pretty big advantage than having an X1/SCP in my opinion.
People keep looking at suggestions inside the box. What I mean by this is, many have just wanted to create variations of the hulls we already have. Once new hulls are created eventually (they will) it will change the entire dynamic of VO. I don't mean to be harsh but in my view the only way is to build the capital meta and expand forward. This is not the first capital variant thread/existing ship variant thread here.
Now I do agree with what OP said, "I thought perhaps the UIT could be better in a different way to either faction in it's major overall theme and nature. So I thought "What if UIT citizens were entitled to buying a UIT Goliath from it's Capital Station at Dau L-10?"-OP HOWEVER, It wouldn't be similar capital hulls we have rather new faction specific hulls each nation gets.
OP has a good intentions at heart. Creating an entire meta and advancing VO's story line to match is above my experience. It comes with hull design,balancing for the game play/lore, thinking about possible bugs/exploits, and anything else devs do. OP wanted my honest opinion on the thread :)
People keep looking at suggestions inside the box. What I mean by this is, many have just wanted to create variations of the hulls we already have. Once new hulls are created eventually (they will) it will change the entire dynamic of VO. I don't mean to be harsh but in my view the only way is to build the capital meta and expand forward. This is not the first capital variant thread/existing ship variant thread here.
Now I do agree with what OP said, "I thought perhaps the UIT could be better in a different way to either faction in it's major overall theme and nature. So I thought "What if UIT citizens were entitled to buying a UIT Goliath from it's Capital Station at Dau L-10?"-OP HOWEVER, It wouldn't be similar capital hulls we have rather new faction specific hulls each nation gets.
OP has a good intentions at heart. Creating an entire meta and advancing VO's story line to match is above my experience. It comes with hull design,balancing for the game play/lore, thinking about possible bugs/exploits, and anything else devs do. OP wanted my honest opinion on the thread :)
Expanding on the Capship meta with everything else as it is currently would firmly make VO pay-to-win, plus encourage multi-box domination rather than actual fighter skill. Completely fixing the vets in an eternal and virtually invulnerable position, with the new players standing no chance, because at the end of the day power is acquired by grind not skill. I've seen that in other games. We might as well go play Eve then.
VO being a sandbox game presents the unique opportunity for a smaller number of pilots to attack bigger and more established organizations. Saying that expanding the capital meta with original content would in turn make VO pay-to-win assumes that the minority is helpless verses the majority. Free to play members and paying subscribers currently have the tools to take out paying capital ship owners given the opportunity. I believe the goal is to expand the tools to counter/defend attacks against creating a layered and unique meta.
Sandbox MMO games are notoriously very harsh when it comes to veteran/newbie relationships. Incarnate has said the capital meta is unfinished and there are new turrets/ship hulls planned. The key to doing this is to make sure the ships are balanced and have foils to each other and in respects to all game play. This is a very tall task for developers and even thinking about this as a non developer hurts my head considering all the variables needed to be considered, exploits, game play impacts, community feedback, etc.
To be blunt. The current meta of two whole capital hulls. Mind you they are freighters as Incarnate has said. In my opinion is pretty small and dull. There is little uses for energy turrets for sub capitals and capitals alike. The capital meta can so much more interacting with different hulls and planning strategies for taking them down with all kinds of different configurations. Even considering how fighter bombers can be a threat also. Let the players hash it out when the ships are introduced. As long as the playing field is even the person/organization who works the hardest and is the most skilled will win. (Prime examples in game)
Outcomes should not all be equal rather the opportunities afforded to everyone in a game to get this ship with this group of people. How is that pay-to-win? Of course I don't know what Incarnate thinks when it comes to building an entire meta but I think it should expand from what we got now. I look forward to your thinking @Sid123.
Sandbox MMO games are notoriously very harsh when it comes to veteran/newbie relationships. Incarnate has said the capital meta is unfinished and there are new turrets/ship hulls planned. The key to doing this is to make sure the ships are balanced and have foils to each other and in respects to all game play. This is a very tall task for developers and even thinking about this as a non developer hurts my head considering all the variables needed to be considered, exploits, game play impacts, community feedback, etc.
To be blunt. The current meta of two whole capital hulls. Mind you they are freighters as Incarnate has said. In my opinion is pretty small and dull. There is little uses for energy turrets for sub capitals and capitals alike. The capital meta can so much more interacting with different hulls and planning strategies for taking them down with all kinds of different configurations. Even considering how fighter bombers can be a threat also. Let the players hash it out when the ships are introduced. As long as the playing field is even the person/organization who works the hardest and is the most skilled will win. (Prime examples in game)
Outcomes should not all be equal rather the opportunities afforded to everyone in a game to get this ship with this group of people. How is that pay-to-win? Of course I don't know what Incarnate thinks when it comes to building an entire meta but I think it should expand from what we got now. I look forward to your thinking @Sid123.
VO being a sandbox game presents the unique opportunity for a smaller number of pilots to attack bigger and more established organizations.
I don't see enough pilots online at once to really orchestrate a hunt-down of capships. A solo pilot can, with a lot of difficulty, take down a goli + dent. If other capships such as Connies/Teradons/HACs were introduced, this would become near impossible. Even 5 skilled pilots in complete coordination can't take down an HAC when they're under skilled fire from 4 other capships. Add multi-boxing to the mix, and you just created an untouchable armada.
As long as the playing field is even the person/organization who works the hardest and is the most skilled will win. (Prime examples in game)
That is, with difficulty, the current situation. The playing field is not level. Veterans, apart from their PvP skill, have also amassed huge quantities of capships (through multi-boxing) resources and credits. PvP skill can be learnt, and with practice, you can become as good as any veteran. That is not true for the other things. Eg. It takes atleast 3 non-capship pilots to take down a levi. With a goli, it becomes possible to solo but not very easy. With 3 golis + 3 dents, you can take the shields down using energy alone, no big deal. And that's a gap you can't bridge through any amount of skill or time. The powerful keep getting more so, and the weak can try as much as they like but they're never gonna be at the same level.
Capships are slow, heavily armoured and shielded ships. They promote multi-boxing. Multi-boxing with capships means having more subs. Now this is a good thing for GS, and I have no problem with that. But what it ends up in is that those who can pay more, win more. I might be a crack pilot and play regularly and dedicatedly. But I'm still going to be beaten by a less skilled/inactive pilot because I can't afford as many subs as he can. Real-life disposable income should not be the determining factor for power in-game.
I don't see enough pilots online at once to really orchestrate a hunt-down of capships. A solo pilot can, with a lot of difficulty, take down a goli + dent. If other capships such as Connies/Teradons/HACs were introduced, this would become near impossible. Even 5 skilled pilots in complete coordination can't take down an HAC when they're under skilled fire from 4 other capships. Add multi-boxing to the mix, and you just created an untouchable armada.
As long as the playing field is even the person/organization who works the hardest and is the most skilled will win. (Prime examples in game)
That is, with difficulty, the current situation. The playing field is not level. Veterans, apart from their PvP skill, have also amassed huge quantities of capships (through multi-boxing) resources and credits. PvP skill can be learnt, and with practice, you can become as good as any veteran. That is not true for the other things. Eg. It takes atleast 3 non-capship pilots to take down a levi. With a goli, it becomes possible to solo but not very easy. With 3 golis + 3 dents, you can take the shields down using energy alone, no big deal. And that's a gap you can't bridge through any amount of skill or time. The powerful keep getting more so, and the weak can try as much as they like but they're never gonna be at the same level.
Capships are slow, heavily armoured and shielded ships. They promote multi-boxing. Multi-boxing with capships means having more subs. Now this is a good thing for GS, and I have no problem with that. But what it ends up in is that those who can pay more, win more. I might be a crack pilot and play regularly and dedicatedly. But I'm still going to be beaten by a less skilled/inactive pilot because I can't afford as many subs as he can. Real-life disposable income should not be the determining factor for power in-game.
That is, with difficulty, the current situation. The playing field is not level.
I see it pretty much leveled, you can also buy premium sub & either buy capship parts from players or build parts in conquerable stations. There is even a mission now in game named "Aelous Dark Markets" which lets you buy capship parts.
Add multi-boxing to the mix, and you just created an untouchable armada.
A single Ragnarok pilot can deshield dent or goliath in a single run, i have seen players co-operating in group to hunt down other players incase they think they can't take down a capship by themself.
Eg. It takes atleast 3 non-capship pilots to take down a levi. With a goli, it becomes possible to solo but not very easy.
I have seen players soloing leviathans but it indeed gets easier if you have more players in group or capships this is why most prefer to do that in group & co-operate.
Capships are slow, heavily armoured and shielded ships. They promote multi-boxing. Multi-boxing with capships means having more subs.But what it ends up in is that those who can pay more, win more.
So you agree players spent money on subs, spent their months of time to build a slow big ship which can be still deshielded and killed by a single skilled player. I see it pretty much leveled.
But what it ends up in is that those who can pay more, win more.
I don't see it currently as pay to win, people who pay still has to do things in game & spend months of time to build a capital ship. However this suggestion might turn it into pay to win because players will keep re-buying goliaths from stations, they won't have to work for it & it pretty much will make "conquerable stations" access useless. There is already option in game to trade with players and buy parts anyways.
Also i think you mean People who play more, win more.
I see it pretty much leveled, you can also buy premium sub & either buy capship parts from players or build parts in conquerable stations. There is even a mission now in game named "Aelous Dark Markets" which lets you buy capship parts.
Add multi-boxing to the mix, and you just created an untouchable armada.
A single Ragnarok pilot can deshield dent or goliath in a single run, i have seen players co-operating in group to hunt down other players incase they think they can't take down a capship by themself.
Eg. It takes atleast 3 non-capship pilots to take down a levi. With a goli, it becomes possible to solo but not very easy.
I have seen players soloing leviathans but it indeed gets easier if you have more players in group or capships this is why most prefer to do that in group & co-operate.
Capships are slow, heavily armoured and shielded ships. They promote multi-boxing. Multi-boxing with capships means having more subs.But what it ends up in is that those who can pay more, win more.
So you agree players spent money on subs, spent their months of time to build a slow big ship which can be still deshielded and killed by a single skilled player. I see it pretty much leveled.
But what it ends up in is that those who can pay more, win more.
I don't see it currently as pay to win, people who pay still has to do things in game & spend months of time to build a capital ship. However this suggestion might turn it into pay to win because players will keep re-buying goliaths from stations, they won't have to work for it & it pretty much will make "conquerable stations" access useless. There is already option in game to trade with players and buy parts anyways.
Also i think you mean People who play more, win more.
A single Ragnarok pilot can deshield dent or goliath in a single run, i have seen players co-operating in group to hunt down other players incase they think they can't take down a capship by themself.
A single capship? Yes. Two capships? Difficult but still possible. We're still talking about two freighters here. If more capships are introduced, and you can own a Trident Type M, P and S, plus a Goliath. Much harder. A Teradon? Impossible solo, difficult with help. You see the trend here? More capships tilt the gameplay balance more and more in favor of those who have played for a long time. I agree, they have done a lot of work for it. But does any amount of work justify ownership of an unbeatable armada? I don't think so.
So you agree players spent money on subs,
I don't see any challenge to that. They are paying multiple subs. But should the amount of money you can afford to pay be a grounds for your power in the game? Or the hardware of your PC? Note that the time and skill required to kill two Tridents flying together is much more than that of killing two Tridents one after the other. You have double the number of turrets firing at you at any given moment. Gets hard to dodge that, simultaneously swarmstack, give chase, and stop them from entering monitored space all at once.
Again, does having a longer grind time or being able to afford more subs justify having an advantage over actual skill? Pay-to-win means stuff gets easier for you when you pay, even if you're unskilled and your opponent is skilled. And that's what capship multi-boxing is. Two capships are hard enough. Add more and you basically give multi-boxers immunity from all attacks.
It's not just about pay-to-win. It's about how much chance we want our newbs to have in the VO 'verse. Do we want them to always be lower, less powerful than the vets simply because they didn't get that much grind time? More capships or buffs to capships increases the value of grind time over practice or dedication. And there the vets are always going to be ahead simply because they started playing earlier. One fact I like about VO is that it does not have that. You can practice, get good and still do most of the stuff with minimal barriers by the "powerful" vets. You can get better than them through skill rather than grind time, where they'll always have one over you. Remove that and VO is no different from Eve, where you have all the super-powered old vets with their years of grind time, and newbs standing almost no chance of getting to that stage. Grind is an important part of the game, but it shouldn't be the only important thing in the game.
A single capship? Yes. Two capships? Difficult but still possible. We're still talking about two freighters here. If more capships are introduced, and you can own a Trident Type M, P and S, plus a Goliath. Much harder. A Teradon? Impossible solo, difficult with help. You see the trend here? More capships tilt the gameplay balance more and more in favor of those who have played for a long time. I agree, they have done a lot of work for it. But does any amount of work justify ownership of an unbeatable armada? I don't think so.
So you agree players spent money on subs,
I don't see any challenge to that. They are paying multiple subs. But should the amount of money you can afford to pay be a grounds for your power in the game? Or the hardware of your PC? Note that the time and skill required to kill two Tridents flying together is much more than that of killing two Tridents one after the other. You have double the number of turrets firing at you at any given moment. Gets hard to dodge that, simultaneously swarmstack, give chase, and stop them from entering monitored space all at once.
Again, does having a longer grind time or being able to afford more subs justify having an advantage over actual skill? Pay-to-win means stuff gets easier for you when you pay, even if you're unskilled and your opponent is skilled. And that's what capship multi-boxing is. Two capships are hard enough. Add more and you basically give multi-boxers immunity from all attacks.
It's not just about pay-to-win. It's about how much chance we want our newbs to have in the VO 'verse. Do we want them to always be lower, less powerful than the vets simply because they didn't get that much grind time? More capships or buffs to capships increases the value of grind time over practice or dedication. And there the vets are always going to be ahead simply because they started playing earlier. One fact I like about VO is that it does not have that. You can practice, get good and still do most of the stuff with minimal barriers by the "powerful" vets. You can get better than them through skill rather than grind time, where they'll always have one over you. Remove that and VO is no different from Eve, where you have all the super-powered old vets with their years of grind time, and newbs standing almost no chance of getting to that stage. Grind is an important part of the game, but it shouldn't be the only important thing in the game.
More capships tilt the gameplay balance more and more in favor of those who have played for a long time.
I disagree, these days new players have the option to build "Goliath" which can be easily achieved within 1-2 months & it only takes 1$ to fly them.
Pay-to-win means stuff gets easier for you when you pay
I disagree again, p2w means you spend money on the game and it gives you advantage over others. But here in VO you only spend money in buying subs, you still have to work on things in game like everyone else which is called playing the game
Gets hard to dodge that, simultaneously swarmstack, give chase, and stop them from entering monitored space all at once.
Ofcourse it is going to be hard for any actual new player in game if they instantly try to oppose a vet who has been playing the game from years.
Do we want them to always be lower, less powerful than the vets simply because they didn't get that much grind time?
What are you talking about ? A new player is supposed to learn & understand the game first and then join a helping guild which guide them , teach them , help them.
And there the vets are always going to be ahead simply because they started playing earlier.
You're making it sound like all vets is a problem and holding some sort of power in game which no new player can have in game which isn't true, i have seen several guilds actively recruiting new players & trying to help new player understanding the game , helping them leveling up , guiding them & in their capship builds, i even saw some players building capships solo.
It's about how much chance we want our newbs to have in the VO 'verse
Yes they won't stand a chance because the newbs you're talking about neither want to buy subs or play the game like everyone else did. Then here they are comparing themself to vets who did both - paid for subs & spent years of their time playing VO.
Anyhow this thread was about buying capship from stations when there is already an option to buy parts from players or either build the parts yourself in game or get help from friends/guilds.
So -1 from me.
I disagree, these days new players have the option to build "Goliath" which can be easily achieved within 1-2 months & it only takes 1$ to fly them.
Pay-to-win means stuff gets easier for you when you pay
I disagree again, p2w means you spend money on the game and it gives you advantage over others. But here in VO you only spend money in buying subs, you still have to work on things in game like everyone else which is called playing the game
Gets hard to dodge that, simultaneously swarmstack, give chase, and stop them from entering monitored space all at once.
Ofcourse it is going to be hard for any actual new player in game if they instantly try to oppose a vet who has been playing the game from years.
Do we want them to always be lower, less powerful than the vets simply because they didn't get that much grind time?
What are you talking about ? A new player is supposed to learn & understand the game first and then join a helping guild which guide them , teach them , help them.
And there the vets are always going to be ahead simply because they started playing earlier.
You're making it sound like all vets is a problem and holding some sort of power in game which no new player can have in game which isn't true, i have seen several guilds actively recruiting new players & trying to help new player understanding the game , helping them leveling up , guiding them & in their capship builds, i even saw some players building capships solo.
It's about how much chance we want our newbs to have in the VO 'verse
Yes they won't stand a chance because the newbs you're talking about neither want to buy subs or play the game like everyone else did. Then here they are comparing themself to vets who did both - paid for subs & spent years of their time playing VO.
Anyhow this thread was about buying capship from stations when there is already an option to buy parts from players or either build the parts yourself in game or get help from friends/guilds.
So -1 from me.
I see many key points here. "If other capships such as Connies/Teradons/HACs were introduced, this would become near impossible."-Sid123
We have no idea what kind of capital ships or anything new might be introduced. As my points stated above meta building aims to build a fair playing ground for everyone. The goal is equality of opportunity to succeed at a task not equality of outcomes. Meta building is blind to these monopolies and established groups because eventually they do get overthrown by smaller groups. That is the beauty of sandbox games.
Yes! When adding new capitals logically a developer should consider how it impacts PVE generation,exploits, PVP game play, and so many other variables that I probably don't even want to consider when developing a game because of my lack of experience.
Since we want to bring up EVE. EVE also works on this same basic principle being a sandbox game. People with virtually nothing compared to the top 1% have risen up and toppled them. It happens in VO to it's own unique way.
"It's not just about pay-to-win. It's about how much chance we want our newbs to have in the VO 'verse. Do we want them to always be lower, less powerful than the vets simply because they didn't get that much grind time?" - Sid123
This comes back to my main point. Everyone in VO has the same opportunities from a 1 week old character to a 10+ year old vet. The 1 week old character given enough learning and time can get established and do what he can to work his contacts and get his goals achieved. This is the beauty of sandbox games.
Equality of opportunities available NOT equality of outcomes for everyone. is my main point here. It's up to the player to make use of his personal skill as long as the playing ground is even in the meta portion of the game excluding player dynamics. I don't believe new capitals from scratch and anything with that will make VO pay-to-win.
To wrap up. We don't know what kind of capital/turrets/guns that might be coming. How can we speculate things that will be brand new be pay-to-win? If logically they are added in considering all the factors developers logically should consider when creating a fair,balanced,fun game that has depth for the 1 week old and the 10+ year player.
Equality of opportunity should be the key driver. In EVE and VO, this is the case and there are many stories showcasing how that 1 guy outsmarted the huge group given the opportunity. In VO this holds true, but to it's own unique way given game mechanics.
Finally, VO has unique challenges that create monopolies in game due to the smaller community size but like I said these monopolies are not all powerful. From what I see and hear from other people they do have cracks. Waiting to tumble down. The same sandbox principle still wins no matter what. As long as the possibility is there to topple big organizations or gain the ability to square up to them given hard work as xXWiseWolfXx said in his post how is that pay-to-win?
Look forward to your rebuttal Sid123
We have no idea what kind of capital ships or anything new might be introduced. As my points stated above meta building aims to build a fair playing ground for everyone. The goal is equality of opportunity to succeed at a task not equality of outcomes. Meta building is blind to these monopolies and established groups because eventually they do get overthrown by smaller groups. That is the beauty of sandbox games.
Yes! When adding new capitals logically a developer should consider how it impacts PVE generation,exploits, PVP game play, and so many other variables that I probably don't even want to consider when developing a game because of my lack of experience.
Since we want to bring up EVE. EVE also works on this same basic principle being a sandbox game. People with virtually nothing compared to the top 1% have risen up and toppled them. It happens in VO to it's own unique way.
"It's not just about pay-to-win. It's about how much chance we want our newbs to have in the VO 'verse. Do we want them to always be lower, less powerful than the vets simply because they didn't get that much grind time?" - Sid123
This comes back to my main point. Everyone in VO has the same opportunities from a 1 week old character to a 10+ year old vet. The 1 week old character given enough learning and time can get established and do what he can to work his contacts and get his goals achieved. This is the beauty of sandbox games.
Equality of opportunities available NOT equality of outcomes for everyone. is my main point here. It's up to the player to make use of his personal skill as long as the playing ground is even in the meta portion of the game excluding player dynamics. I don't believe new capitals from scratch and anything with that will make VO pay-to-win.
To wrap up. We don't know what kind of capital/turrets/guns that might be coming. How can we speculate things that will be brand new be pay-to-win? If logically they are added in considering all the factors developers logically should consider when creating a fair,balanced,fun game that has depth for the 1 week old and the 10+ year player.
Equality of opportunity should be the key driver. In EVE and VO, this is the case and there are many stories showcasing how that 1 guy outsmarted the huge group given the opportunity. In VO this holds true, but to it's own unique way given game mechanics.
Finally, VO has unique challenges that create monopolies in game due to the smaller community size but like I said these monopolies are not all powerful. From what I see and hear from other people they do have cracks. Waiting to tumble down. The same sandbox principle still wins no matter what. As long as the possibility is there to topple big organizations or gain the ability to square up to them given hard work as xXWiseWolfXx said in his post how is that pay-to-win?
Look forward to your rebuttal Sid123
I agree that the current game with the two capships and their control features is pretty balanced. As you say, a 1 week newb and a 10 year vet starting a new character and working towards a similar goal with similar dedication have a pretty good chance of reaching said goal close to each other.
In the current model, capships and small ships each have their own advantages and disadvantages. I wouldn't go so far as to say capships have no serious edge over small ships; they do. However, the disadvantages keep them from becoming unbeatable by small ships. People pay to fly them, work their asses off to build them, but (at least in my opinion) that's no reason to give them a sense of safety or dominance. There should be no time when you can just rest on your laurels and say, "Now I've done this work, I've won." If at any point someone feels they have reached a state of invulnerability, or where they can afford to relax, through any amount of work, there's something wrong.
Multi-boxing with capships does that to some extent. A fleet of multiple Tridents + golis is much less vulnerable to anything short of a similar fleet. They've worked for it, "played the game", as xXWiseWolfXx says, but through that work they've reached a position of safety brought about not by skill or continuous ongoing work, but by past work, ie, resting on their laurels. In this situation, their PAST grind time, their ability to spend real-life money and their hardware gives them an edge. Not something I consider ideal; but hey, it's not what I think that counts.
Now just consider that tomorrow Incarnate says, "We're getting the Trident Types P and S into the game!". The first people to get the new capships would be vets, possibly within the week; but that's expected and not a problem. What IS a problem, is that now the value of PAST grind time has risen further over current grind or skill. You might be playing only an hour a day now, but during that time your fleet of 4 capships is much less vulnerable than the guy who just build his TTM and goli, plays 4 hours a day, but doesn't have resources piled up from a long time ago. I don't deny that these resources were worked for. But how much should we value past work over present?
To sum up, I'm stating three "problems" I see with the idea of introducing more capships:
1. Increase in effect of real-life income on in-game activities: Pretty simple. Why should the college student who can't afford multiple subs be weaker than the middle-aged player or the rich kid who can afford a sub, in spite of being just as dedicated to work in the game and being just as skilled? Or why should the proper "gamer" with a high-end PC have an advantage over someone who can't afford to devote that much of their money towards gaming? These factors already have an effect on the game, particularly with load times in races or with Levis, Unrat dents, etc. Why would you increase the effect of equipment over skill?
2. Increase in value of PAST grind time over current work or skill: Vets had a hard time building their capships. No denying that. We hear the stories of the old Latos M7 many times over, of the unstable conq access, of the higher dangers of greyspace. It is perhaps impossible for the new capship builder to imagine traveling 30k through dangerous unmonitored space carrying a valuable capship part, or to lose and gain conq access several times a day, or to encounter pirates at every second wormhole.
However, at the end of the day, it's work they did back then. It wasn't without its perks. Farming noodles and SSS with no farming nerfs, or using turrets, much more common samo drops, static trade routes, etc. Each "generation" of VO players has their own share of difficulties and advantages, there's no need to belittle the work of either. They have resources stockpiled from a bygone era. They worked for them, sure. But how much of an advantage should past work give someone? I'm not asking to delete these items. I'm only saying that providing them further uses tilts the balance in favor of past work over present. I'm not sure that's desirable.
3. Value of pure grind:
Building a capship is pure grind. You don't need to be particularly skilled. Get some decent licences, learn basic PvE, and you're good to go. And grind has an important place in VO. In a non-grindy VO, there is nothing to work towards. No goals. But there has to be a balance between grind and skill. More capships means more value otwards grinding. Better capships means more value towards grinding. And what you end up with, is just people grinding their asses off for a game which is meant to be fun. We have twitch based combat for a reason. We're not here to play Space Farming Simulator.
In the current model, capships and small ships each have their own advantages and disadvantages. I wouldn't go so far as to say capships have no serious edge over small ships; they do. However, the disadvantages keep them from becoming unbeatable by small ships. People pay to fly them, work their asses off to build them, but (at least in my opinion) that's no reason to give them a sense of safety or dominance. There should be no time when you can just rest on your laurels and say, "Now I've done this work, I've won." If at any point someone feels they have reached a state of invulnerability, or where they can afford to relax, through any amount of work, there's something wrong.
Multi-boxing with capships does that to some extent. A fleet of multiple Tridents + golis is much less vulnerable to anything short of a similar fleet. They've worked for it, "played the game", as xXWiseWolfXx says, but through that work they've reached a position of safety brought about not by skill or continuous ongoing work, but by past work, ie, resting on their laurels. In this situation, their PAST grind time, their ability to spend real-life money and their hardware gives them an edge. Not something I consider ideal; but hey, it's not what I think that counts.
Now just consider that tomorrow Incarnate says, "We're getting the Trident Types P and S into the game!". The first people to get the new capships would be vets, possibly within the week; but that's expected and not a problem. What IS a problem, is that now the value of PAST grind time has risen further over current grind or skill. You might be playing only an hour a day now, but during that time your fleet of 4 capships is much less vulnerable than the guy who just build his TTM and goli, plays 4 hours a day, but doesn't have resources piled up from a long time ago. I don't deny that these resources were worked for. But how much should we value past work over present?
To sum up, I'm stating three "problems" I see with the idea of introducing more capships:
1. Increase in effect of real-life income on in-game activities: Pretty simple. Why should the college student who can't afford multiple subs be weaker than the middle-aged player or the rich kid who can afford a sub, in spite of being just as dedicated to work in the game and being just as skilled? Or why should the proper "gamer" with a high-end PC have an advantage over someone who can't afford to devote that much of their money towards gaming? These factors already have an effect on the game, particularly with load times in races or with Levis, Unrat dents, etc. Why would you increase the effect of equipment over skill?
2. Increase in value of PAST grind time over current work or skill: Vets had a hard time building their capships. No denying that. We hear the stories of the old Latos M7 many times over, of the unstable conq access, of the higher dangers of greyspace. It is perhaps impossible for the new capship builder to imagine traveling 30k through dangerous unmonitored space carrying a valuable capship part, or to lose and gain conq access several times a day, or to encounter pirates at every second wormhole.
However, at the end of the day, it's work they did back then. It wasn't without its perks. Farming noodles and SSS with no farming nerfs, or using turrets, much more common samo drops, static trade routes, etc. Each "generation" of VO players has their own share of difficulties and advantages, there's no need to belittle the work of either. They have resources stockpiled from a bygone era. They worked for them, sure. But how much of an advantage should past work give someone? I'm not asking to delete these items. I'm only saying that providing them further uses tilts the balance in favor of past work over present. I'm not sure that's desirable.
3. Value of pure grind:
Building a capship is pure grind. You don't need to be particularly skilled. Get some decent licences, learn basic PvE, and you're good to go. And grind has an important place in VO. In a non-grindy VO, there is nothing to work towards. No goals. But there has to be a balance between grind and skill. More capships means more value otwards grinding. Better capships means more value towards grinding. And what you end up with, is just people grinding their asses off for a game which is meant to be fun. We have twitch based combat for a reason. We're not here to play Space Farming Simulator.
I agree with your multiboxing point. EVE has been rooted in multiboxing characters since forever. The debate about the impacts still goes on today. Correct me if I am wrong but one subscribing account can run different characters? Whereas in EVE you need to subscribe multiple accounts to get the ability to play different characters at the same time. Is this a big advantage? Some say yes. Some say no as there are pretty major drawbacks. The addition of capitals should consider how they might be multiboxed by people in VO as that will gain huge advantages but have it's own drawbacks. The pros and cons of multiboxing is warrants its own discussion in VO. I would love to have that debate and get to see your stances on that.
You do raise a valid point. When new capitals are added that will defiantly impact the value of the past grind people have done.
I believe that if a person does decide to build multiple capital ships they are accepting that risk that their capital ships may/may not be changed in the area they want to engage in. Incarnate has stated in previous threads that players must accept changes that might radically change what they do. (I do remember him saying this need citation however) EVE has also took this stance also. It would be shortsighted to plan on building multiple tridents not acknowledging the fact VO is an unfinished game with things that will change.
When new capitals/guns/even subcapital hulls/guns will be added I believe developers will consider these factors. To some extent. Will the value of past work be considered? It's not my place to assume. Will it change the direction of the game? I don't think so. EVE has pushed on with their changes and if you don't like them you can simply quit. It has happened to me in VO and in EVE but I adapted and changed my style to match. Many people cry about massive changes. Adapt or die mentality. With limited input in suggestions form like this.
"Increase in effect of real-life income on in-game activities"-Sid123
That is the challenge of a twitched based combat game like VO. People with better internet and hardware do have an advantage over the others who don't. Incarnate has been working on evening the playing field with people with poor internet and excellent internet. Now I am blind to this when considering meta building. There will always be people with better rigs/internet than others in any game. "Why would you increase the effect of equipment over skill?"- Sid 123 The goal of new guns and hulls is to create a dynamic VO were builds counter other builds do some extent. Yes! The bottom line is the skill of each pilot we should preserve that what creates an interesting game that many will play is the ability to think strategically about fitting and hulls to fight a specific opponent. I know you meant that in a real life context, I disagree because the goal is to build a dynamic system in game.
When it comes to expanding the entire meta not just limited to capitals but to how subcaps interact with capitals, capital killing guns fighters can equip, defensive weapons capitals can use to protect themselves and so on. While still retaining the twitch combat of VO.
I do agree we are not here to play space farming simulator. As long as new additions are done right and as long as they are original adding more deph in VO. While considering the points you and me have made it will be great! It does look like we agree on many points with the same goal in mind. Look forward to your continued thoughts. You made many great points that I have yet to even expand and talk about as I dislike walls of text. Let me know what I missed I would be happy to respond back.
You do raise a valid point. When new capitals are added that will defiantly impact the value of the past grind people have done.
I believe that if a person does decide to build multiple capital ships they are accepting that risk that their capital ships may/may not be changed in the area they want to engage in. Incarnate has stated in previous threads that players must accept changes that might radically change what they do. (I do remember him saying this need citation however) EVE has also took this stance also. It would be shortsighted to plan on building multiple tridents not acknowledging the fact VO is an unfinished game with things that will change.
When new capitals/guns/even subcapital hulls/guns will be added I believe developers will consider these factors. To some extent. Will the value of past work be considered? It's not my place to assume. Will it change the direction of the game? I don't think so. EVE has pushed on with their changes and if you don't like them you can simply quit. It has happened to me in VO and in EVE but I adapted and changed my style to match. Many people cry about massive changes. Adapt or die mentality. With limited input in suggestions form like this.
"Increase in effect of real-life income on in-game activities"-Sid123
That is the challenge of a twitched based combat game like VO. People with better internet and hardware do have an advantage over the others who don't. Incarnate has been working on evening the playing field with people with poor internet and excellent internet. Now I am blind to this when considering meta building. There will always be people with better rigs/internet than others in any game. "Why would you increase the effect of equipment over skill?"- Sid 123 The goal of new guns and hulls is to create a dynamic VO were builds counter other builds do some extent. Yes! The bottom line is the skill of each pilot we should preserve that what creates an interesting game that many will play is the ability to think strategically about fitting and hulls to fight a specific opponent. I know you meant that in a real life context, I disagree because the goal is to build a dynamic system in game.
When it comes to expanding the entire meta not just limited to capitals but to how subcaps interact with capitals, capital killing guns fighters can equip, defensive weapons capitals can use to protect themselves and so on. While still retaining the twitch combat of VO.
I do agree we are not here to play space farming simulator. As long as new additions are done right and as long as they are original adding more deph in VO. While considering the points you and me have made it will be great! It does look like we agree on many points with the same goal in mind. Look forward to your continued thoughts. You made many great points that I have yet to even expand and talk about as I dislike walls of text. Let me know what I missed I would be happy to respond back.