Forums » Suggestions
I'm not asking for the in flight restriction to be removed galaxy wide. Just in a single interesting sector.
Right, but the definition of "interesting" is the core of the contention, isn't it? You're asking to have this gameplay in a high-value location for manufacturing.
Why specifically that sector? Why not, say, a Corvus sector, along the lines of what rkerst suggested? It could be fogged as well.
Right, but the definition of "interesting" is the core of the contention, isn't it? You're asking to have this gameplay in a high-value location for manufacturing.
Why specifically that sector? Why not, say, a Corvus sector, along the lines of what rkerst suggested? It could be fogged as well.
Not to speak for WAF or defend M7 as the right station. Players have an emotional investment in M7 that they do not have in alternatives such as M14 or D14. It is a resource that some players use at varying levels depending on the stage they are in a build. Corvus stations have some nice stuff but are not essential unless value is added to them in some way that other stations don't share. I think that emotional investment can motivate a player or group to attempt to assert control while motivating others to lift the embargo.
While I will admit that the op would be an inconvenience, I am not convinced that it would be more so than a competent pirate going afk in M7. The people I've interacted with in their builds and myself during my first build have been paranoid. Checking wormholes and stations for known hostiles or unknown players. This has especially been the case with M7. I would suggest a station alert for docked players about hostile activity outside the station.
As pointed out previously, mining could be done using one's trident or goliath- and far more cheaply, so I'm guessing the docking is to facilitate reload and repair/homing so that the combatants can remain local to the conflict if they don't have a ship to dock with.
From my perspective, I don't see the op adding that much additional risk to M7, certainly not to the degree that some of the dissenters implied. However, I would rather see the restriction lifted at the Corvus stations, where there is also a history of fighting in the station sector.
While I will admit that the op would be an inconvenience, I am not convinced that it would be more so than a competent pirate going afk in M7. The people I've interacted with in their builds and myself during my first build have been paranoid. Checking wormholes and stations for known hostiles or unknown players. This has especially been the case with M7. I would suggest a station alert for docked players about hostile activity outside the station.
As pointed out previously, mining could be done using one's trident or goliath- and far more cheaply, so I'm guessing the docking is to facilitate reload and repair/homing so that the combatants can remain local to the conflict if they don't have a ship to dock with.
From my perspective, I don't see the op adding that much additional risk to M7, certainly not to the degree that some of the dissenters implied. However, I would rather see the restriction lifted at the Corvus stations, where there is also a history of fighting in the station sector.
My memory of this interesting game play was a couple of players dropping mines in docks up to their limits (sometimes on multiple alts) and it just being a pain. I was spending time every day sweeping mines the trolls left. 99% of the time I was alone in the sector, there was no battle going on.
Yes, occasionally a battle would be going on in m7 and maybe mines would be a part of it. But every day there were the trolls...
BTW when I say 'newer player' I do not mean 'new player'. Everyone under roughly combat 8 is a newer player IMO, under 4 I consider a noob.
Yes, occasionally a battle would be going on in m7 and maybe mines would be a part of it. But every day there were the trolls...
BTW when I say 'newer player' I do not mean 'new player'. Everyone under roughly combat 8 is a newer player IMO, under 4 I consider a noob.
I've not yet had reason to visit Latos M-7 and I've not been terribly active, in general, so perhaps my opinion may be viewed as less than others, however, I agree with some points that have been made in this thread. I think that many of the dissenting opinions are somewhat blinded by a narrow scope of view, perhaps induced by particularly abusive behavior in the past.
The short version is that I believe mines should be allowed in Latos M-7, however their usage should be limited to being outside of a defined perimeter of the station.
There's a lot to follow in this thread, so I've linked what I believe to be some of the most relevant points of opinion here for reference to my comments. I have not included opposing opinions because that would make this just a long paraphrasing of the thread, and I think We all float has mostly answered them in an adequate manner.
--- Quote from the original post ----------------------------------------
We all float said:
There are reasons, both defensive and offensive for mining the docks.
I propose that...docking be allowed again with mines in flight at this single station.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but if you're referring to placing mines directly inside the docks, so that people are killed merely attempting to dock/undock with/from the station, than I whole-heartedly disagree with this suggestion.
I can get behind the idea of having to navigate or clear a minefield around the station. Further, why would a station, even without an NFZ, allow especially dangerous blockages within their docking bay?
--- Mines as a weapon of control ---------------------------------------
Death Fluffy said:
Mines are a horrible weapon of war. They are used to control or limit an opponents ability to cross certain territory or access a point of interest.
Sid123 said:
Mines are a troll weapon. You aren't using skills, you don't need to be actively playing. Just dump em in strategic locations and get kills. Station mining is an absolute troll use of a troll weapon. (emphasis mine)
--- Support - Mines as a weapon of control --------------------------------
First of all, before we can really discuss the merits or detractors of using mines at Latos M-7, or anywhere for that matter, it needs to be decided-on or understood what the role of mines are.
As Death Fluffy has pointed out, mines are largely used to control access to an area. Can they be used offensively in combat? Sure, but I don't believe that's how they're intended to be used, and even if used by a troll, they are still just using them as a means of controlling territory.
Considering their use as a way to control territory, I think they should be allowed to be used in Latos M-7, and elsewhere in grey space.
--- Why mines shouldn't be allowed -----------------------------------------
rkerst said:
Mine wars are fine, but let's have them somewhere else. M7 is too important for functions apart from pvp.
Renaar said:
...not M7. There would be an endless field of mines placed in front of the lower undock port where you could never get a replacement capship out unscathed.
HunPredator said:
Also, not mentioning the fact that you could nearly instantly deshield/kill capships for again, easy kills by clumping them up in the docks, while having zero chance of dealing with it.
Grim1984 said:
I see no reason to have a mine war in a station sector. This only sounds like it would be useful to steal goods used to make capital ships and trades that may be done in the sector.
IToken said:
M7 is the only station you can build capital ships...
csgno said:
My memory of this interesting game play was a couple of players dropping mines in docks up to their limits (sometimes on multiple alts) and it just being a pain.
--- Rebuttal & Support - Why mines shouldn't be allowed -----------------
It appears that the majority dissenting opinion is centered around open access to the shipyard for everyone. Latos M-7 is clearly a valuable resource.
Why should all players be allowed to build a capital ship without threat of conflict?
Why should it be exempt from attempts by players to control access or usage?
Obviously, without mines conflict is still possible. However, it is limited to overt conflict, where other players actively work to prevent access. Controlling/defending a location in this manner is clearly untenable. Mines are not even a sure-fire way of maintainimg control of a location, since there are limitations on their usefulness -- owing in part to being a temporary, disposable measure.
While I am all for players being able to control areas, whether organically or through other built-in systems, I do agree with the sentiment that there should be limits on use to prevent abuses -- such as mine-stacking. To revisit an earlier question I made: why would a station, even without an NFZ, allow especially dangerous blockages within their docking bay?
Perhaps the solution isn't to disallow their use, but to limit the manner in which they can be used. Obviously a discussion on mine mechanics is deserving of another thread. Specific to this thread, perhaps part of the solution is to allow the station to keep it's perimeter and points of ingress and egress clear. This would still allow the use of mines as a threat or deterrent but without the so-called griefing behavior exhibited in the past.
--- New players --------------------------------------------------------
HunPredator said:
New players would suffer hard if this change will be made.
starblazzz said:
We want more people especially noobs to come here and try building a capship.
Luxen said:
Its not on the map, as WAF says. they SHOULD NOT be there. it shouldn't be reccomended for them to go there.
Piment said:
NEW. PLAYERS. SHOULD. NOT. BE. THERE.
New players don't belong in Latos M-7. Grey space is not safe. Grey space should be dangerous. If they're traveling there for the express purpose of circumventing licensing restrictions then they should be subject to the inherent dangers associated with grey space, in whatever form it takes.
Also, new players aren't building capships. If they're at the point where they are ready to perform the final manufacturing step to create a capship, they already have an understanding of the dangers of grey space and the connections to make the endeavor even possible.
--- Use of Latos M-7 as a base -----------------------------------------
ScotiaKnight said:
Docking was disabled because people were sitting in stations with alts, waiting for a player to arrive, and dumping missiles into the sector then fleeing back into the station over and over.. among other things.
Perhaps Latos M-7 shouldn't allow someone with hot weapons to dock immediately.
The short version is that I believe mines should be allowed in Latos M-7, however their usage should be limited to being outside of a defined perimeter of the station.
There's a lot to follow in this thread, so I've linked what I believe to be some of the most relevant points of opinion here for reference to my comments. I have not included opposing opinions because that would make this just a long paraphrasing of the thread, and I think We all float has mostly answered them in an adequate manner.
--- Quote from the original post ----------------------------------------
We all float said:
There are reasons, both defensive and offensive for mining the docks.
I propose that...docking be allowed again with mines in flight at this single station.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but if you're referring to placing mines directly inside the docks, so that people are killed merely attempting to dock/undock with/from the station, than I whole-heartedly disagree with this suggestion.
I can get behind the idea of having to navigate or clear a minefield around the station. Further, why would a station, even without an NFZ, allow especially dangerous blockages within their docking bay?
--- Mines as a weapon of control ---------------------------------------
Death Fluffy said:
Mines are a horrible weapon of war. They are used to control or limit an opponents ability to cross certain territory or access a point of interest.
Sid123 said:
Mines are a troll weapon. You aren't using skills, you don't need to be actively playing. Just dump em in strategic locations and get kills. Station mining is an absolute troll use of a troll weapon. (emphasis mine)
--- Support - Mines as a weapon of control --------------------------------
First of all, before we can really discuss the merits or detractors of using mines at Latos M-7, or anywhere for that matter, it needs to be decided-on or understood what the role of mines are.
As Death Fluffy has pointed out, mines are largely used to control access to an area. Can they be used offensively in combat? Sure, but I don't believe that's how they're intended to be used, and even if used by a troll, they are still just using them as a means of controlling territory.
Considering their use as a way to control territory, I think they should be allowed to be used in Latos M-7, and elsewhere in grey space.
--- Why mines shouldn't be allowed -----------------------------------------
rkerst said:
Mine wars are fine, but let's have them somewhere else. M7 is too important for functions apart from pvp.
Renaar said:
...not M7. There would be an endless field of mines placed in front of the lower undock port where you could never get a replacement capship out unscathed.
HunPredator said:
Also, not mentioning the fact that you could nearly instantly deshield/kill capships for again, easy kills by clumping them up in the docks, while having zero chance of dealing with it.
Grim1984 said:
I see no reason to have a mine war in a station sector. This only sounds like it would be useful to steal goods used to make capital ships and trades that may be done in the sector.
IToken said:
M7 is the only station you can build capital ships...
csgno said:
My memory of this interesting game play was a couple of players dropping mines in docks up to their limits (sometimes on multiple alts) and it just being a pain.
--- Rebuttal & Support - Why mines shouldn't be allowed -----------------
It appears that the majority dissenting opinion is centered around open access to the shipyard for everyone. Latos M-7 is clearly a valuable resource.
Why should all players be allowed to build a capital ship without threat of conflict?
Why should it be exempt from attempts by players to control access or usage?
Obviously, without mines conflict is still possible. However, it is limited to overt conflict, where other players actively work to prevent access. Controlling/defending a location in this manner is clearly untenable. Mines are not even a sure-fire way of maintainimg control of a location, since there are limitations on their usefulness -- owing in part to being a temporary, disposable measure.
While I am all for players being able to control areas, whether organically or through other built-in systems, I do agree with the sentiment that there should be limits on use to prevent abuses -- such as mine-stacking. To revisit an earlier question I made: why would a station, even without an NFZ, allow especially dangerous blockages within their docking bay?
Perhaps the solution isn't to disallow their use, but to limit the manner in which they can be used. Obviously a discussion on mine mechanics is deserving of another thread. Specific to this thread, perhaps part of the solution is to allow the station to keep it's perimeter and points of ingress and egress clear. This would still allow the use of mines as a threat or deterrent but without the so-called griefing behavior exhibited in the past.
--- New players --------------------------------------------------------
HunPredator said:
New players would suffer hard if this change will be made.
starblazzz said:
We want more people especially noobs to come here and try building a capship.
Luxen said:
Its not on the map, as WAF says. they SHOULD NOT be there. it shouldn't be reccomended for them to go there.
Piment said:
NEW. PLAYERS. SHOULD. NOT. BE. THERE.
New players don't belong in Latos M-7. Grey space is not safe. Grey space should be dangerous. If they're traveling there for the express purpose of circumventing licensing restrictions then they should be subject to the inherent dangers associated with grey space, in whatever form it takes.
Also, new players aren't building capships. If they're at the point where they are ready to perform the final manufacturing step to create a capship, they already have an understanding of the dangers of grey space and the connections to make the endeavor even possible.
--- Use of Latos M-7 as a base -----------------------------------------
ScotiaKnight said:
Docking was disabled because people were sitting in stations with alts, waiting for a player to arrive, and dumping missiles into the sector then fleeing back into the station over and over.. among other things.
Perhaps Latos M-7 shouldn't allow someone with hot weapons to dock immediately.
I think the system right now is mostly a fair trade-off. If right now, someone wants to create a large minefield in M7 they can use a capship (most players have one, or at least have a buddy that has one. Or they can hire someone) or leave and reenter the sector. The tradeoff of the extra minutes (pretty much negated if you have a capship) seems fair to place a large amount of mines around the station.
Right, but the definition of "interesting" is the core of the contention, isn't it? You're asking to have this gameplay in a high-value location for manufacturing.
Why specifically that sector? Why not, say, a Corvus sector, along the lines of what rkerst suggested? It could be fogged as well.
Specifically why: Currently it is the only unmonitored station sector in the game with zero npc defenses. Conq station turrets fire at mines. Station guards in conq stations kill mines with incredible efficiency.
The missions for goliaths, tridents, and enduring titles mean players have a reason to be there (transporting items for capships builds and rha for other things), rather than just for scheduled events. Because the station has a capital dock, capital ships also have more of a reason to be there as well.
I'm not opposed to a corvus station having the same goals as my OP. If that were the case, then something like Odia M-14 would be best, because of the capital docks. The station would be better frequented than say K-12. Additionally, that station's proximity to the planet, could explain why it is fogged.
To draugath: Your comprehensive reply is awesome. Thanks!
https://imgur.com/Ny9MEDT.png
Why specifically that sector? Why not, say, a Corvus sector, along the lines of what rkerst suggested? It could be fogged as well.
Specifically why: Currently it is the only unmonitored station sector in the game with zero npc defenses. Conq station turrets fire at mines. Station guards in conq stations kill mines with incredible efficiency.
The missions for goliaths, tridents, and enduring titles mean players have a reason to be there (transporting items for capships builds and rha for other things), rather than just for scheduled events. Because the station has a capital dock, capital ships also have more of a reason to be there as well.
I'm not opposed to a corvus station having the same goals as my OP. If that were the case, then something like Odia M-14 would be best, because of the capital docks. The station would be better frequented than say K-12. Additionally, that station's proximity to the planet, could explain why it is fogged.
To draugath: Your comprehensive reply is awesome. Thanks!
https://imgur.com/Ny9MEDT.png
I don't see why Odia M14 should allow mining the sector. Corvus has convoys that pass through their stations, why would they want to impede traffic in their sectors by letting any random pilot take a poop around it and also dock with them? I'm more inclined to let latos M7 have this feature because of a lack of any security or trade traffic. Makes a lot more sense purely on a RP basis.
There aren't any true unlawful stations in the game, those that don't have any governing faction, apart from maybe the 1 race tube sector and the 3 conquerable stations. The suggestion fits better for this category if it ever gets introduced.
As for having it in M7, I don't think its a huge deal. As someone pointed out, mining can be done with a capital ship available to them. Goliaths are very common these days. Anyone determined to impede players can still achieve their goal.
The short version is that I believe mines should be allowed in Latos M-7, however their usage should be limited to being outside of a defined perimeter of the station.
This is reasonable IMO.
There aren't any true unlawful stations in the game, those that don't have any governing faction, apart from maybe the 1 race tube sector and the 3 conquerable stations. The suggestion fits better for this category if it ever gets introduced.
As for having it in M7, I don't think its a huge deal. As someone pointed out, mining can be done with a capital ship available to them. Goliaths are very common these days. Anyone determined to impede players can still achieve their goal.
The short version is that I believe mines should be allowed in Latos M-7, however their usage should be limited to being outside of a defined perimeter of the station.
This is reasonable IMO.
The main problem with mines in M7 was that they were never removed by NPCs and could kill you when you undocked, a situation for which there was no forewarning or opportunity to avoid. This was extremely exploitable.
The second problem was that mines could be hidden near or in the station structure such that approaching vessels couldn't even see if there was a mine there. Also VERY exploitable.
The third problem was that people with their game-breaking bag-of-alts could spend 15 minutes mining every entry and exit dock, far exceeding the mines-per-sector limit levied on individual accounts. Extraordinarily exploitable.
Given all that ^, I think the docking-with-mines (and swarms, and flares) being actively in the sector would be fine so long as NPCs were added to clear out the most exploitative placements (those in a limited proximity around the station, akin to an NFZ). This way, mine warfare can still take place, but people have a chance to weave around them upon entry and they won't be spawn killed when they undock.
The second problem was that mines could be hidden near or in the station structure such that approaching vessels couldn't even see if there was a mine there. Also VERY exploitable.
The third problem was that people with their game-breaking bag-of-alts could spend 15 minutes mining every entry and exit dock, far exceeding the mines-per-sector limit levied on individual accounts. Extraordinarily exploitable.
Given all that ^, I think the docking-with-mines (and swarms, and flares) being actively in the sector would be fine so long as NPCs were added to clear out the most exploitative placements (those in a limited proximity around the station, akin to an NFZ). This way, mine warfare can still take place, but people have a chance to weave around them upon entry and they won't be spawn killed when they undock.
The third problem was that people with their game-breaking bag-of-alts could spend 15 minutes mining every entry and exit dock, far exceeding the mines-per-sector limit levied on individual accounts. Extraordinarily exploitable.
I'm just curious, was anyone actually using a so called game breaking bag of alts to do what a single player can do with the current sector mine limits? I personally don't know anyone who did that. But I have not played VO as long as many of the other posters here.
I'm just curious, was anyone actually using a so called game breaking bag of alts to do what a single player can do with the current sector mine limits? I personally don't know anyone who did that. But I have not played VO as long as many of the other posters here.
i vote for bractus D9! Much fun mining there.
You can remove EC-89 pk counts and SF LENB drops.
You can remove EC-89 pk counts and SF LENB drops.
Greenwall said:
...would be fine so long as NPCs were added to clear out the most exploitative placements (those in a limited proximity around the station, akin to an NFZ).
Personally I envision this clearing behavior as some sort of field that detonates mines deployed within it. Of course, for this to be reasonable, the field shouldn't extend so far away that it would be difficult to gauge or prevent effective usage of a mine field. Considering the nature of the station, I think an obvious NFZ should not be the way to implement this, though this would be the simplest way.
Not to delve too deeply into a discussion about mine mechanics, but if mines were changed to prevent stacking, this would also help mitigate part of the concerns I've seen mentioned a few places.
Combine all of this with a docking cooldown for hot weapons, and I think a good balance can be reached.
...would be fine so long as NPCs were added to clear out the most exploitative placements (those in a limited proximity around the station, akin to an NFZ).
Personally I envision this clearing behavior as some sort of field that detonates mines deployed within it. Of course, for this to be reasonable, the field shouldn't extend so far away that it would be difficult to gauge or prevent effective usage of a mine field. Considering the nature of the station, I think an obvious NFZ should not be the way to implement this, though this would be the simplest way.
Not to delve too deeply into a discussion about mine mechanics, but if mines were changed to prevent stacking, this would also help mitigate part of the concerns I've seen mentioned a few places.
Combine all of this with a docking cooldown for hot weapons, and I think a good balance can be reached.
The question is whether JakP is suggesting the reinstated ability to mine the docks and the immediate perimeter of the station space or the general ability to use mines at some non-exploitive distance away from the station.
It might be that guards or some other mechanism preventing the former renders his suggestion futile.
It might be that guards or some other mechanism preventing the former renders his suggestion futile.
I heavily +1 this because m7 shouldn't be a safe place at all it's unmonitored and doesn't have anything guarding it it's not held by any faction and on top of that it's in grey space anyways mining m7 and being able to dock in m7 shouldn't have changed my is a very dangerous place and should always stay extremely high risk to even go to. Go to grey space and m7 at your own risk end of story. And if someone puts a lot of mines down in m7 they should be able to still dock makes no sense that a station owned by no faction stops you from docking when it's unguarded and not aligned with anything. So+1