Forums » Suggestions
So Arolte, if I happen to be within range of another player, I'll be sent to where he went, not where I want to go. I consider that a problem.
No. Not if you don't have him targeted. If you untarget him or if you lose him, your navroute will revert to what it was previously. Not a problem.
problem is that the people with slower connections will always get the flak...
(just wondering what you would find on that :D)
(just wondering what you would find on that :D)
Arolte, there should be a key to "follow player" that changes your navroute, but it shouldn't be automatic, that would get a little frustrating if you accidentally targeted someone who jumped and then ruined your 10 jump navroute. That's a good suggestion though, you may want to start another thread about that.
Back to the Behemoth... Rattman all you have to do to escape is hold the turbo, you don't have to worry about maneuvering at all.
The point is that the Behemoth is unbalanced compared to all other trade ships in the game. Remember how long it took to increase faction standing? Now with the behemoth you can get up to admired standing with the faction of your choice in under an hour!
I don't think that's a bad thing.... but I think that ability should come with a lot more risk. I want trading to be as fun as possible, and I think part of that is having balanced trade ships... the more profitable ones also involving a little more risk. That to me is what makes a fun game.
Back to the Behemoth... Rattman all you have to do to escape is hold the turbo, you don't have to worry about maneuvering at all.
The point is that the Behemoth is unbalanced compared to all other trade ships in the game. Remember how long it took to increase faction standing? Now with the behemoth you can get up to admired standing with the faction of your choice in under an hour!
I don't think that's a bad thing.... but I think that ability should come with a lot more risk. I want trading to be as fun as possible, and I think part of that is having balanced trade ships... the more profitable ones also involving a little more risk. That to me is what makes a fun game.
Re: Renegade ++RIP++
> a lot also depends on the type of cargo you have loaded. Ergo, load it up with
> full ferric and you know you are a sitting duck :D
I calculated out how the Moth's acceleration compares with the Centaur & Maud, and included that in my thread suggesting cargo mass reduction for Mauds, here: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/10737
When you compare an empty Moth to a Moth fully loaded with XiRite Alloy (one of the heaviest 1cu cargos), the Moth does take a big penalty to its turbo acceleration, dropping from 50m/s2 to 22.7273m/s2. But guess what? A Tunguska MMaud (the ship with the next best turbo acceleration) fully loaded with XiRite alloy also takes a big penalty to its turbo acceleration, dropping from 45.4545m/s2 when empty to 10.6383m/s2 when full. So when you're comparing full ships, the Moth still out-performs all other trade ships (and is therefore safer), and is carrying twice as much cargo.
[edit]
Note that those acceleration numbers are of course not actually the numbers the game's physics engine uses, as the acceleration in the game decreases as you approach top speed, but they are still good indicators of how the ships perform in comparison with each other.
[/edit]
> a lot also depends on the type of cargo you have loaded. Ergo, load it up with
> full ferric and you know you are a sitting duck :D
I calculated out how the Moth's acceleration compares with the Centaur & Maud, and included that in my thread suggesting cargo mass reduction for Mauds, here: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/10737
When you compare an empty Moth to a Moth fully loaded with XiRite Alloy (one of the heaviest 1cu cargos), the Moth does take a big penalty to its turbo acceleration, dropping from 50m/s2 to 22.7273m/s2. But guess what? A Tunguska MMaud (the ship with the next best turbo acceleration) fully loaded with XiRite alloy also takes a big penalty to its turbo acceleration, dropping from 45.4545m/s2 when empty to 10.6383m/s2 when full. So when you're comparing full ships, the Moth still out-performs all other trade ships (and is therefore safer), and is carrying twice as much cargo.
[edit]
Note that those acceleration numbers are of course not actually the numbers the game's physics engine uses, as the acceleration in the game decreases as you approach top speed, but they are still good indicators of how the ships perform in comparison with each other.
[/edit]
Ratt, the reason Strike Forces are so effective against the Moth is because their seekers will spin you around long enough for the Vults with magical never-ending energy to blast you apart. Even an MSC (3 flares 2 jacks or 3 flares 1 jack 1 screamer) wouldn't be able to kill a moth if the pilot was halfway talented because your ship isn't fast enough. In fact could any infiniboost ship hold enough rockets of any kind to take out a Moth?
I think RattMann was refering to Hive Bot Assaults, like Prosus & Valent Assaults, not Strike Forces. If you're taking a Moth into space where you have less than -600 standing... well, I'd say you deserve what you get. Although I'm not sure why you'd take it into a hive bot sector, either...
Oh, I think you're right Beolach, but I see no evidence with Hive Bots either that they don't have unlimited energy, a luxury I'm sure we'll never have.
Hive Bots do not have unlimited energy, although I do think their energy supply is not the same as ours. To prove this, find a Guardian of some kind, at first it will be shooting several weapons at you, but after a bit it will only be shooting one.
But anyway, that's really beside the point. I'm not worried about whether or not Hive Bots or SF bots can kill the Moth, because the Moth can easily avoid them by not going into sectors with them. I'm only concerned about player ships.
[edit]
Oh, but I think a MGC easily carries enough rockets to destroy a Moth, but it's not fast enough to catch up with the Moth, unless they start out stopped and right next to each other. It might catch up & get in a few hits, but the Moth will likely still be alive when they get to the 3000m line, and then the Moth can jump empties & be safe.
[/edit]
But anyway, that's really beside the point. I'm not worried about whether or not Hive Bots or SF bots can kill the Moth, because the Moth can easily avoid them by not going into sectors with them. I'm only concerned about player ships.
[edit]
Oh, but I think a MGC easily carries enough rockets to destroy a Moth, but it's not fast enough to catch up with the Moth, unless they start out stopped and right next to each other. It might catch up & get in a few hits, but the Moth will likely still be alive when they get to the 3000m line, and then the Moth can jump empties & be safe.
[/edit]
I really don't understand why everyone wants the Behemoth nerfed. I've been running it through several trade runs and not once did I feel like it was some uber transport Ferrari ship of some sort. It's got so much foreward momentum, because of its mass, that half the time you're scraping up the dock's sides just barely squeezing into it. And about its speed, 95% of the time I haven't been able to top off 180m/s by the time I reach most of the wormholes with a FC battery. You guys still want it to be slower?!
I think the thing most people are concerned with is where the Marauder fits in. Personally I think it's the Marauder that needs tweaking, not the Behemoth. The Marauder to me looks like a fast ship. It's got SIX engines and it looks like it has very little structural mass (like a stripped down or skeletal ship). I made a suggest a long while back to make the Marauder into some type of special delivery ship. Let me get into that, using real world examples.
Think of the Behemoth as your 18-wheeler truck. We all know 18-wheelers can't turn or stop on a dime. But we know 18-wheelers can haul tons of cargo and is capable of going at high speeds. You heard right, high speeds. The Behemoth has HUGE engines and is specialized in pulling all that mass. That's why it has BIG engines! So it shouldn't be ridiculously slow. I think what they've got now is actually quite reasonable. What prevents the Behemoth from becoming an uber bomber, of course, is the fact that it has a really slow turn rate and is so massive. In other words you can only effectively travel quick in straight lines, which is pretty much the same with 18-wheelers.
The Marauder is more like your delivery van. It doesn't have the disadvantages of an 18-wheeler. It can turn on a dime and it can be VERY fast. But of course it doesn't haul as much cargo. But keep in mind the thing with SOME trade missions is that time means money. I'm talking about bonus timed missions. The Marauder should fit that role very well. It should have really high speeds, perhaps matching that of the Warthog TD or Centurion, BUT (and listen carefully) it should have very low armor. In other words you're trading safety for speed.
What I'm trying to suggest is the Marauder would be capable of doing multiple runs quickly back and forth, while the Behemoth would be able to do a single but slow run with bulk. Each ship will then have its own specific role and remain quite unique between each other. And before people start arguing that the Marauder would then become a fighter, once again let me remind you that its armor would be reduced and its torque could also be possibly reduced so it doesn't turn as quickly. But it should be pretty damned fast to help compete against other traders.
I think the thing most people are concerned with is where the Marauder fits in. Personally I think it's the Marauder that needs tweaking, not the Behemoth. The Marauder to me looks like a fast ship. It's got SIX engines and it looks like it has very little structural mass (like a stripped down or skeletal ship). I made a suggest a long while back to make the Marauder into some type of special delivery ship. Let me get into that, using real world examples.
Think of the Behemoth as your 18-wheeler truck. We all know 18-wheelers can't turn or stop on a dime. But we know 18-wheelers can haul tons of cargo and is capable of going at high speeds. You heard right, high speeds. The Behemoth has HUGE engines and is specialized in pulling all that mass. That's why it has BIG engines! So it shouldn't be ridiculously slow. I think what they've got now is actually quite reasonable. What prevents the Behemoth from becoming an uber bomber, of course, is the fact that it has a really slow turn rate and is so massive. In other words you can only effectively travel quick in straight lines, which is pretty much the same with 18-wheelers.
The Marauder is more like your delivery van. It doesn't have the disadvantages of an 18-wheeler. It can turn on a dime and it can be VERY fast. But of course it doesn't haul as much cargo. But keep in mind the thing with SOME trade missions is that time means money. I'm talking about bonus timed missions. The Marauder should fit that role very well. It should have really high speeds, perhaps matching that of the Warthog TD or Centurion, BUT (and listen carefully) it should have very low armor. In other words you're trading safety for speed.
What I'm trying to suggest is the Marauder would be capable of doing multiple runs quickly back and forth, while the Behemoth would be able to do a single but slow run with bulk. Each ship will then have its own specific role and remain quite unique between each other. And before people start arguing that the Marauder would then become a fighter, once again let me remind you that its armor would be reduced and its torque could also be possibly reduced so it doesn't turn as quickly. But it should be pretty damned fast to help compete against other traders.
Beo: Even an MSC (3 flares 2 jacks or 3 flares 1 jack 1 screamer) wouldn't be able to kill a moth if the pilot was halfway talented because your ship isn't fast enough.
But I guess I wasn't clear in the next sentence, I meant an infiniboost ship that was fast enough to catch up to the moth. That leaves Vulture and Hog. Vulture would be 2 Sunflares, 1500 per missle if you get a direct hit...so assuming all your shots were perfect you'd do 48,000 damage, 3k more than it takes...but again that's if all your shots were perfect. If you're in a hog you'd use Sunflares and Jackhammers because there's not enough energy to infiniboost and use all 16 screamers...Jacks are 2000 per with 12 of them...so 24,000+24,000, what do you know its the same! But again, we're talking direct hits.
So basically, contrary to my previous statements, it *is* possible to kill a moth in an infiniboost ship without losing your energy...you just have to be really freaking talented.
But I guess I wasn't clear in the next sentence, I meant an infiniboost ship that was fast enough to catch up to the moth. That leaves Vulture and Hog. Vulture would be 2 Sunflares, 1500 per missle if you get a direct hit...so assuming all your shots were perfect you'd do 48,000 damage, 3k more than it takes...but again that's if all your shots were perfect. If you're in a hog you'd use Sunflares and Jackhammers because there's not enough energy to infiniboost and use all 16 screamers...Jacks are 2000 per with 12 of them...so 24,000+24,000, what do you know its the same! But again, we're talking direct hits.
So basically, contrary to my previous statements, it *is* possible to kill a moth in an infiniboost ship without losing your energy...you just have to be really freaking talented.
Smittens, that's assuming the pirate even has time to empty all of its ammo before the Behemoth reaches the jump point. I don't think that's possible unless the Behemoth pilot is really, really dumb. Once the Behemoth has clearance, all it has to do is jump to an empty sector and jump out again to lose its pursuer.
Arolte, the point isn't that the Behemoth feels like a ferrari, its that it is unstoppable.
I think some people may be overestimating the amount of time it would add to trade runs tweaking the Behemoth's top speed down. The main reason the Behemoth can get standing raised so fast is because it can do bulk cargo missions in one run... it's a bulk carrier.
Slowing the top speed by 30 m/s wouldn't make that much of a difference in this respect, but it would make it a lot more risky taking the Behemoth into pirate infested space. So you would be able to raise your nation's faction standing quickly without much danger, but if you wanted to work on your Corvus standing you might be better off going with a ship that's a little more versatile, like the Marauder.
Arolte, the point isn't that the Behemoth feels like a ferrari, its that it is unstoppable.
I think some people may be overestimating the amount of time it would add to trade runs tweaking the Behemoth's top speed down. The main reason the Behemoth can get standing raised so fast is because it can do bulk cargo missions in one run... it's a bulk carrier.
Slowing the top speed by 30 m/s wouldn't make that much of a difference in this respect, but it would make it a lot more risky taking the Behemoth into pirate infested space. So you would be able to raise your nation's faction standing quickly without much danger, but if you wanted to work on your Corvus standing you might be better off going with a ship that's a little more versatile, like the Marauder.
Why not just tweak the Marauder so it's quicker? I guess that's what I'm trying to say. I really, REALLY don't see a problem with the Behemoth. The problem with catching up to players isn't isolated to the Behemoth only. It rests true for pretty much all the ships. It's the universe itself that makes PvP harder.
But lowering its top speed won't help that much. Unless its some wh sector where you start 10k away, there's only a few seconds before you jump where you're above 160
But the frictional force would kick in that much sooner. Whereas now you just top 180 m/s before you jump, then you would just top 150 m/s when you jump. The turbo thrust could also be reduced somewhat.
What if we brought back equippable engines? (in the form of Fast & Inefficient, Medium & Average efficiency, and Slow & Efficient, or whatever)
Yeah arolte, I agree that the maud is pretty much useless. But, have you ever tried hunting a Behemoth down? You need 2-3 people to do it, and only then if you're completely prepared.
Well, I suppose technically you can do it with 1, but the moth pilot has to be incredibly stupid, and keep on jumping wormhole to wormhole, despite getting reduced to half health.
The thing is, you can catch up to a moth, fill it full of a battery load, and then (if you have a heavy batt) they're down to 50%, and you have to recharge to follow them, by which time they're long gone.
The Fast Charge is not much better, cept that you CAN catch them when they ignore their hull and forget to jump to a station to repair. It takes 4-5 FULL battery loads to kill a moth. Meaning, you have to catch up 7-8 after using up your battery load.
This makes it utterly, utterly, impossible.
Well, I suppose technically you can do it with 1, but the moth pilot has to be incredibly stupid, and keep on jumping wormhole to wormhole, despite getting reduced to half health.
The thing is, you can catch up to a moth, fill it full of a battery load, and then (if you have a heavy batt) they're down to 50%, and you have to recharge to follow them, by which time they're long gone.
The Fast Charge is not much better, cept that you CAN catch them when they ignore their hull and forget to jump to a station to repair. It takes 4-5 FULL battery loads to kill a moth. Meaning, you have to catch up 7-8 after using up your battery load.
This makes it utterly, utterly, impossible.
What would that accomplish, Harry? That would just complicate matters and make ship balance a hellish task for the devs. We'd also lose some of the unique properties of the current ships. I think it would be a step backwards, at least in my opinion. I'm not saying there shouldn't be any customizability, but you have to admit that there are still a few ships right now which have questionable properties that don't quite fit their role very well (or far exceed it).
One could even argue that including the battery with the ship purchase might be the next step to creating more unique ships. But I think that might anger some players who are seeking customizability. I'm sure if it were balanced out alright and if there are enough variations to choose from, with each ship, everyone can be happy. But I don't want to get too off topic here on that suggestion...
For what it's worth I gave the Marauder a try today (after finally reaching the right levels) and found that it was much more agile than I thought it would be. But things started getting pretty bad when I packed its cargo hold to the brim with minerals. That's when the Marauder started acting crazy and became unwieldy. This ship absolutely cannot pull any weight besides its own. It slides around like Roseanne on ice once you put cargo in it.
What I think it needs is a reduction in torque (so it doesn't turn like a fighter), an increase in mass (so it's not so unpredictable when you go from an empty one to a loaded one), and an increase in thrust (so it can actually pull the cargo rather than slide around like crazy). The Marauder is great when it comes fresh out of the docks, but its inability to pull weight really makes you question why it's classified as a trader's ship.
One could even argue that including the battery with the ship purchase might be the next step to creating more unique ships. But I think that might anger some players who are seeking customizability. I'm sure if it were balanced out alright and if there are enough variations to choose from, with each ship, everyone can be happy. But I don't want to get too off topic here on that suggestion...
For what it's worth I gave the Marauder a try today (after finally reaching the right levels) and found that it was much more agile than I thought it would be. But things started getting pretty bad when I packed its cargo hold to the brim with minerals. That's when the Marauder started acting crazy and became unwieldy. This ship absolutely cannot pull any weight besides its own. It slides around like Roseanne on ice once you put cargo in it.
What I think it needs is a reduction in torque (so it doesn't turn like a fighter), an increase in mass (so it's not so unpredictable when you go from an empty one to a loaded one), and an increase in thrust (so it can actually pull the cargo rather than slide around like crazy). The Marauder is great when it comes fresh out of the docks, but its inability to pull weight really makes you question why it's classified as a trader's ship.
In my opinion, the Behemoth should be like a big diesel frieghter.
The cargo is huge and it eventually can reach high speeds. (Just look at the size of those engines.) Although even without cargo, it would still be like a bull in a china shop. So with cargo "manuverability" is not a word the pilot will come to know.
If this is combined with very slow acceleration speed on the turbo, then you truly have a BEHEMOTH.
~Cpt. Overkill~
The cargo is huge and it eventually can reach high speeds. (Just look at the size of those engines.) Although even without cargo, it would still be like a bull in a china shop. So with cargo "manuverability" is not a word the pilot will come to know.
If this is combined with very slow acceleration speed on the turbo, then you truly have a BEHEMOTH.
~Cpt. Overkill~
Personally, I prefer the Behemoth as it is right now. It's an elite trading ship, requiring high license levels, and as such it should be better than most non-elite trading ships. Nerfing it would remove the last de facto elite trading ship.
Re: Arolte
> I think the thing most people are concerned with is where the Marauder fits in.
> Personally I think it's the Marauder that needs tweaking, not the Behemoth. The
> Marauder to me looks like a fast ship. It's got SIX engines and it looks like it has
> very little structural mass (like a stripped down or skeletal ship).
I agree with Arolte that the real problem is not with the Behemoth, but with the Marauder. Why does the much weaker Valent Marauder Rev B require Trading and Commerce License level 13, while the Behemoth requires only level 8 (if I remember correctly; the WiKi seems to be down these days)?
Beolach's thread "Cargo mass reduction for the Marauders" ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/10737 ) seems to offer a useful suggestion for improving the Marauder--reducing the mass of the cargo in proportion to the level of the ship after the cargo is loaded.
Re: Arolte
> There's one issue I take up when someone mentions that the Behemoth should
> require player escorts. And that's the fact that there aren't enough players
> online all the time to always rely on escorts.
Agreed. I logged on just a few hours ago, and there were only about fifteen people total, among all the nations together, online! Being discovered by even one skillful pirate from among that group in a fully-loaded, nerfed Behemoth with only that number of total players online would make trading impractical; there simply wouldn't be enough players online to ask for escorts.
I think that the main problem with the Behemoth is not with its functionality, but with the fact that it is too easy to obtain. Perhaps its Trading and Commerce License level should be increased to thirteen, and that of the Valent Marauder Rev B should be decreased to eight. Also, perhaps the Behemoth should become a special faction-specific ship, available only to players with at least 720 TPG standing, for example. Then its requirements would match its functionality.
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
Re: Arolte
> I think the thing most people are concerned with is where the Marauder fits in.
> Personally I think it's the Marauder that needs tweaking, not the Behemoth. The
> Marauder to me looks like a fast ship. It's got SIX engines and it looks like it has
> very little structural mass (like a stripped down or skeletal ship).
I agree with Arolte that the real problem is not with the Behemoth, but with the Marauder. Why does the much weaker Valent Marauder Rev B require Trading and Commerce License level 13, while the Behemoth requires only level 8 (if I remember correctly; the WiKi seems to be down these days)?
Beolach's thread "Cargo mass reduction for the Marauders" ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/10737 ) seems to offer a useful suggestion for improving the Marauder--reducing the mass of the cargo in proportion to the level of the ship after the cargo is loaded.
Re: Arolte
> There's one issue I take up when someone mentions that the Behemoth should
> require player escorts. And that's the fact that there aren't enough players
> online all the time to always rely on escorts.
Agreed. I logged on just a few hours ago, and there were only about fifteen people total, among all the nations together, online! Being discovered by even one skillful pirate from among that group in a fully-loaded, nerfed Behemoth with only that number of total players online would make trading impractical; there simply wouldn't be enough players online to ask for escorts.
I think that the main problem with the Behemoth is not with its functionality, but with the fact that it is too easy to obtain. Perhaps its Trading and Commerce License level should be increased to thirteen, and that of the Valent Marauder Rev B should be decreased to eight. Also, perhaps the Behemoth should become a special faction-specific ship, available only to players with at least 720 TPG standing, for example. Then its requirements would match its functionality.
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier