Forums » Suggestions

Change the SVG Drain value to 54m/s

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Mar 11, 2013 TheRedSpy link
I don't want to seem like i'm lobbying too much for stuff that only I want because the Serco Vulture Guardian is my favorite ship, but it is such a simple change that would define the ships role much more clearly against the vulturius and would ease a lot of frustrations about Serco Nationalism.

Every single Serco player is fed up with the lack of a ship that is broadly capable of catching a fleeing valkryie or other ships. The greyhound is not a nationalist solution and has problems because it can't vector very well. Players look to the Serco Vulture to fill this role and unfortunately find it quite lacking.

I accept the premise that the valkryie is going to be a superior dogfighter, not to mention having significantly more armour and more firepower than the SVG, if you compare the thrust/weight ratios this is of course going to be the case:

SVG
Base Cruise T/W Ratio: 6.18%
Base Turbo T/W Ratio: 6.84%

Valk X1
Base Cruise T/W Ratio: 7.50%
Base Turbo T/W Ratio: 7.67%

Valk Vigilant
Base Cruise T/W Ratio: 7.76%
Base Turbo T/W Ratio: 8.10%

But having the drain value that extra 1 point higher than the valkryie actually counts for quite a lot when it comes to chasing targets over a distance including vectoring. The turbo T/W ratio is the measurement of how well a ship vectors, and as you can see unless the valkryie is packing extremely heavy addons it's going to get away easily in most circumstances.

However, I have experienced a number of situations where a much much heavier valkryie is able to escape from a relatively lightly equipped SVG and I believe the reason this occurs is the extra point of drain combined with the burden on the pursuer to have to expend energy (sometimes speculatively) to damage the opponent. Indeed, the most common scenario in a valkryie/SVG or any ship chase with an SVG is the opponent will turbo straight or vector to the very limit of their powercell before making the jump, usually exhausting the energy reserves of the SVG to the extent you couldn't possibly damage them before they warp.

In short, the small change in the turbo energy value to 54/sec instead of 56/sec on the SVG would go a long way to giving Serco a viable patrol fighter/interceptor that can actually chase down enemy Itani ships but that still maintains the clear dogfight superiority of the Valkryie granted by its (absurdly) low base weight.
Mar 11, 2013 TheRedSpy link
Also Incarnate, if you end up reading this, why do we all feel like you are so reluctant to modify ship values at the moment? Even with simple changes like this.
Mar 11, 2013 Samwise9 link
+1
Mar 11, 2013 Irbis link
+1, this is really needed!
Mar 11, 2013 Kierky link
The equivalent of the IBG is the SVG.
The equivalent of the Valkyrie is nothing.
The equivalent of the Prometheus is nothing.

There needs to be one, and this will not be achieved by buffing ships up that do their job fine.

But if you want to make it actually good, lower it to 53/s while you're at it.
Mar 11, 2013 TheRedSpy link
The IBG is not designed as a patrol ship, it's a light assault dogfighter. It's also FAR superior to the SVG in that respect.

53/s would definitely be nice, I only suggest 54 as a figure because it's a soft sell.
Mar 11, 2013 Touriaus link
Does anyone even use the IBG when they can use the valk? The difference is serco have a fighter and a heavy ship. The itanis have a fighter and then an absurdly buffed fighter. Makes the IBG pretty obsolete, I've seen a few IBG pilots come at me and after they die they immediately get the valk out (usually so they can flee). The faction system doesn't help either, because everyone and their mother can have a valk and this includes criminals. Makes me wonder why pirates even use the greyhound if they can just get a valk.
Mar 11, 2013 abortretryfail link
I use IBGs all the time.

-1 SVGs have more thrust than a valk and it's damn near impossible to shake one already. They already got a turbo buff 2 years ago.

+1 to Also Incarnate, if you end up reading this, why do we all feel like you are so reluctant to modify ship values at the moment? Even with simple changes like this.

Why does the Raptor still suck?
Mar 11, 2013 Espionage link
They don't have more relative thrust than a valk or an ibg, ARF, and because of the drain value and top speed a much heavier valk has no trouble escaping a much lighter SVG in most cases.

The math doesn't lie, if you weigh down your valk with crap you shouldn't still be able to escape from the ultralight svg designed to catch you but all you have to do is play energy attrition and the SVG will lose any hope of dosing out enough firepower to hurt you.
Mar 11, 2013 Pizzasgood link
Depends where I am and what I'm hunting, Mecha. If I'm going after NPC moths, the greyhound is usually a lot more convenient and effective. It has a large port, so it can use the MP which has one of the best combinations of speed and efficiency. It also has much better turbo efficiency. That's very important, since NPC convoys consist of multiple ships, so being able to recharge while turboing is critical. And NPCs are crappy enough that the hound's poor maneuverability isn't usually a problem.

Then there's the location aspect. Valks come from Jallik, and that end of space is poor hunting grounds for NPCs. There is no local access to cargo scanners (which are important for convoy grinding). There is only one convoy-using station each in Edras and Pelatus. The Edras station doesn't even sell normal behemoths, so loot retrieval takes extra long if you don't have one stockpiled.

Odia and Latos are much better places for convoy hunting, and both are closer to hounds anyway.

Now, player pirating is another story. Especially if you intend to go the extortion route so you can attack fighters as well. In that case, a Valk will usually serve you better. Besides being better at combat, there's also the fact that when pirating players, you rarely have to worry about chasing down multiple ships at the same time, so efficiency isn't as important. And unlike with NPCs, Edras and Pelatus are excellent places for hunting players hauling valuable cargo. Or at least, they were back before most major guilds had their own tridents. I haven't done much hunting lately so I don't know how popular the "lol I'll just haul it with the trident" idea is.
Mar 11, 2013 Savet link
+1

Couple their inferior chase ability with the fact the only have 2 ports and they desperately need this
Mar 11, 2013 Savet link
To follow up on my earlier post, which was typed on my phone in haste, there's definitely a balance issue to consider. The Valk is the combat equivalent of the Prom, but the Prom is not equivalent when it comes to interception. The SVG is an interceptor, but it lacks the ability to be competitive when compared to the valk.

This leaves independents, pirates, traders, etc with only one real option when it comes to choosing a best in class escape, pursuit, combat ship....skewing the love-o-meter in the direction of the Itani.

While it's theoretically possible that this change could cause balance problems between the nation ships, it's no more problematic than the situation that currently exists, and can always be reverted if it proves to be a bad change.

So...I'm giving it another +1 in the interests of changing things up and keeping things interesting. This is another low-hanging fruit item that represents a small change compared to other solutions.
Mar 11, 2013 tarenty link
The Valk is the combat equivalent of the Prom

No. Two totally different boats, different tactics, different roles. "Combat" is the only thing they have in common, really.

I've read nearly none of this thread, but I'd like to throw out a negative vote for very specific "this counters this, this is the equivalent of this" kind of talk. I love VO because there are no set classes and roles for ships; some are better at certain things than others, but you don't have "this is a skirmisher and counters the heavy." When you start walking through that realm, spreadsheet land is next. Ships do not have to be perfectly balanced. They do not have to be equal to a ship on the other side. Keep this in perspective as you debate.

/lecture
Mar 11, 2013 TheRedSpy link
Yes I already gave Kierky this lecture, tarenty, you should have seen what he wrote before that...
Mar 11, 2013 idd link
+1

Devs.
Change.
This.
Now.
Mar 11, 2013 Savet link
That is true tarenty, but having a subpar interceptor already makes people play spreadsheet rather than choosing their reputation based on their own desires. Is this the best solution? No. But it's the best solution that involves minimal dev intervention while their focus is elsewhere.
Mar 12, 2013 Touriaus link
Most of the issue is the fact that the two nations can't engage each other all that well. While most people initially are probably don't consider fleeing from every engagement when they're losing, once you get the valk people will always do this. It makes the possibility for either side to win any engagement nearly impossible. You can essentially damage the valks in every round and they can easily escape. Which means no one gets anywhere in combat. You either stalemate them or you give up, because there is no realistic chance of catching them. If they're outnumbered the valk pilots will not engage at all and often times choose to turbo around the sector indefinitely.

I'm typically not one to complain about combat unless I see a legitimate problem in the first place. This makes nationalistic fighting often fruitless, even more so than it already is. If going into the battle you know that the odds of killing any of the valks are narrow due to the fact that they cannot be trapped into any engagement, you're likely to stop caring and stop bothering with conflict at all. I know I get tired of constantly chasing them in futility, I mean if this is a combat, national conflict driven game someone really ought to die already.
Mar 13, 2013 TheRedSpy link
The sad fact is that the MkIII is actually a little better at this job than the SVG because of its 1 point lower drain I find - I would have thought the turbo thrust was the only important issue here but drain is severely limiting, even 1 point a second
Mar 13, 2013 Kierky link
Fix it! devs. just. do it.
Mar 13, 2013 Pizzasgood link
"It makes the possibility for either side to win any engagement nearly impossible."

No, actually there problem is more that there aren't enough engagement with meaningful victory conditions in the first place. If you were trying to destroy a Goliath Cannon, for example, and the Itani defenders kept running away, that would just make your job easier. But we don't really have anything consequential to fight over, so people mostly just fight for the hell of it, with their only objective being either fun or a PK stat.

Give people a motivation to not run away, and the problem will largely vanish.