Forums » Suggestions
Retention Of New Players
Good observations. I don't think the devs or most vets ever lose sight of the importance of player retention.
In fact, in recent years a lot of work has gone into improving the new player experience with providing them a protected sector to get started in, detailed missions that they must complete that are designed to help them get a handle for 'flight' in VO as well as how the various bits work in the game. And a collection of better missions once they get out of the training sector to help them get their levels up. Frankly, I think the grind to combat 3 is a royal pita.
Unfortunately and fortunately, VO is a sandbox. One of the problems that I see is that new players typically want to jump right into big boy / girl VO and do all the cool stuff like capship building while not taking the time to explore and just enjoy the game and its fantastic missions- many of them designed by players! As a result, they look for shortcuts. Frankly, I've long held that license standing should not be a factor in what ships or items I can buy if I have the standing and credits. The light sub option makes doing away with that more difficult, but really license should be just for show.
And then you have, and I'm sorry, but I'm simply going to say it, the people who are too stupid to read. Most people, including myself actually enjoy or take a little pride in helping new players. However, I'm not going to wipe every newblets ass just because they fail at reading and comprehension. VO must have some standards. Most particularly when they repeatedly ask the same question again and again and again and again as though if they ask enough times Uncle Fluffy will show up with the Charmin and make it all better.
Keep in mind that VO is a work in progress. My understanding is that there won't be a significant push with respect to advertising until 2.0.
There is also, probably a bit outdated by now a pretty good strategy guide that can be accessed through the Community Sites link or http://www.ratelis.com/guide/strat.html I doubt it takes into account recent changes, but for a new player it should still give them a decent orientation.
Again, good thoughts. Thoughts that are reflected in the frustration of long term players who know how much better the game would be with a population of at least several hundred people online at any given time during the day or better. I do believe that for the devs and most active players, that retention of new players is priority one. We can't force people to stay and we're not going to beg them to stay and play with our ball. We hope that they see the potential and will want to stay and help make VO what it is meant to become. But... again, if I want to wipe snotty noses and kiss boo boo's, I'll have kids of my own. :)
In fact, in recent years a lot of work has gone into improving the new player experience with providing them a protected sector to get started in, detailed missions that they must complete that are designed to help them get a handle for 'flight' in VO as well as how the various bits work in the game. And a collection of better missions once they get out of the training sector to help them get their levels up. Frankly, I think the grind to combat 3 is a royal pita.
Unfortunately and fortunately, VO is a sandbox. One of the problems that I see is that new players typically want to jump right into big boy / girl VO and do all the cool stuff like capship building while not taking the time to explore and just enjoy the game and its fantastic missions- many of them designed by players! As a result, they look for shortcuts. Frankly, I've long held that license standing should not be a factor in what ships or items I can buy if I have the standing and credits. The light sub option makes doing away with that more difficult, but really license should be just for show.
And then you have, and I'm sorry, but I'm simply going to say it, the people who are too stupid to read. Most people, including myself actually enjoy or take a little pride in helping new players. However, I'm not going to wipe every newblets ass just because they fail at reading and comprehension. VO must have some standards. Most particularly when they repeatedly ask the same question again and again and again and again as though if they ask enough times Uncle Fluffy will show up with the Charmin and make it all better.
Keep in mind that VO is a work in progress. My understanding is that there won't be a significant push with respect to advertising until 2.0.
There is also, probably a bit outdated by now a pretty good strategy guide that can be accessed through the Community Sites link or http://www.ratelis.com/guide/strat.html I doubt it takes into account recent changes, but for a new player it should still give them a decent orientation.
Again, good thoughts. Thoughts that are reflected in the frustration of long term players who know how much better the game would be with a population of at least several hundred people online at any given time during the day or better. I do believe that for the devs and most active players, that retention of new players is priority one. We can't force people to stay and we're not going to beg them to stay and play with our ball. We hope that they see the potential and will want to stay and help make VO what it is meant to become. But... again, if I want to wipe snotty noses and kiss boo boo's, I'll have kids of my own. :)
This has been discussed before from different angles. Since I started playing in 2008, the biggest move the devs made towards retention (in my eyes) was the huge push to open up to mobile devices. We don't know all the details, but my suspicion is that this was the best option the devs thought they had, as they likely got some extra funding from the mobile industry to make this game available on their platform.
Nobody sees the actual numbers, but my perception of the result of their efforts is/was more temporary newbs but no significant increase in retention. In fact, I'd argue the retention has dropped since I first started playing. Of the various things I think add to poor retention, the initial user experience and grind necessary for anything worthwhile to use are big things... but not the only things.
Adjustments we've seen this year have, aside from some graphical improvments, been seemingly targetted at retaining more experienced players and not necessarily the newbs. While it should go without saying that we all very much so appreciate these updates, they do little to help with the overall issue of "not enough people are playing".
It's a tough thing, no doubt, and probably even tougher than most of use players imagine, given we don't know the full picture of what is going on a Guild Software.
I still think it would be really nice to see some kind of bug/update/upgrade status that shows us the things they have in the pipeline (or, at least some of the things), to give us a sense of the future direction of this game. But creating even THAT would take away time from the devs that they would spend on making the game better....
And so it goes....
Nobody sees the actual numbers, but my perception of the result of their efforts is/was more temporary newbs but no significant increase in retention. In fact, I'd argue the retention has dropped since I first started playing. Of the various things I think add to poor retention, the initial user experience and grind necessary for anything worthwhile to use are big things... but not the only things.
Adjustments we've seen this year have, aside from some graphical improvments, been seemingly targetted at retaining more experienced players and not necessarily the newbs. While it should go without saying that we all very much so appreciate these updates, they do little to help with the overall issue of "not enough people are playing".
It's a tough thing, no doubt, and probably even tougher than most of use players imagine, given we don't know the full picture of what is going on a Guild Software.
I still think it would be really nice to see some kind of bug/update/upgrade status that shows us the things they have in the pipeline (or, at least some of the things), to give us a sense of the future direction of this game. But creating even THAT would take away time from the devs that they would spend on making the game better....
And so it goes....
I doubt the developers running the show are unaware of the gripes that new players have with the game. They probably hear it constantly. So aside from a better, role playing centric wiki. Here's my idea.
New players come in and they expect a motivation to a role. There isn't really any. I can play the game, get high licenses in all areas (not giving a shit about any in-game backstory or which corporation is what and who hates who) and have access to everything (aside from factional exclusive items). There is no value in pursueing any role. The devs have relied on guilds to create this role motivation but it fails utterly in the small numbers of players currently in game. No guild can afford to be a one role guild. There is no mutual trader guild, no super nationalist (military), no strictly miner, etc. There aren't enough players to make the guilds big enough to maintain that dynamic and so many have alts just to be members of other factional guilds that their own existences make no sense in relation to their inter-guild actions. Manufacturing alone is only now possible in short spurts of conquering and hoping not more than 3 other opposing faction members are awake and feel like ruining your day. It's so broken most players only find entertainment in turning the game into a simple fps in a given sector or two.
The cost to entry in the game for a new player then ends up relying on mostly sucking up to one of the remaining big vet filled guilds. Trying to strike it out a new is a seamingly laughable waste of time since the only interesting thing to do is build a trident or attack people trying to. A player's only other alternative is playing the various single player missions . But none of those offer a path to advancing significantly in the game in a way that is not possible outside of the missions.
If you want to have the game still function with fewer players and not just devolve into a stupid 3d fps game that just drives all new players away :
1. first make sure serco and itani can't even be neutral to eachother. They're at war.
2. UIT can only achieve respect with both.
3 On top of that you can't achieve anything more than respect with a corporation unless you are employed by them. (and you can only be employed by one at any one time and you revert to a respect cap when you leave or lower)
4. Corporate employment missions now exist (as well as corporate exclusive items and manufacturing only available to employees). These can be available right after training. There are a lot of corporations and new players can carve out _USEFUL_ niches to vets and guilds quickly.
5. Corporate employement creates automatic mutually exclusive relations with other corps. Choosing a corporation (or none) to be employed by is not to be taken lightly.
6. Some corporations defend more heavily than others and some take much longer to regain standing once lost. Players have to be aware of who they are attacking and where much more so than now.
7. 1 corporation will be chosen as an actual pirate "corporation". They actively seak out non-military vessels and attack in nearby systems and wormholes. Dont matter who you are. A few bases are scattered in the corners of the universe.
8. Pirate corporation will recruit players who have no coporate employment, have less than neutral standing with a certain number of other corporations.
9. Agreeing to be a pirate allows you to dock on the pirate station without harm. You automatically become KOS on whatever corp the pirates have recently attacked. (automatically any nationalist capital).
We now get a system where when we are low on players, new players are signifcantly more important and can find immensely popular roles in helping vet players get things done and not feel like they're completely grinding their time away getting no where. By splitting the universe up into logical coporations (that already exist but dont really matter much) and making them functional we make it impossible for any one player to be a jack of all trades.
At first vet players may think this is bad but it's really very good even for them. Trying to get anything done manufacturing or any real large scale event is either monumentally annoying due the opposition of even a hand full of players or so immensely easy that it removes all meaning from doing it. Now everyone has to work with some number of other people to do anything. Everything becomes Cogs in a system where you still have rivalries but you also have necessary alliances and you have to work together. The makeup of guilds becomes a matter of having members in key positions and also allows guilds to maintain a role of significance of any single aspect of the game. A mining guild wont simply be strong by being populated by vets who do nothing but mine all day so much that they all have bm3's and nobody else wants to be bored out of the goddamn mind that much to do the same. A mining guild can be very strong simply by having a number of members in all the various mining corporations ...giving them access to exclusive mining tools and options, advantages that begin from the start of a new player. Basically, the fewer players we have the more important and awesome any new player will feel and be. Vets will need them. Guilds will need them. They wont feel useless coming out of the gate by any means.
You have to create importance in investing time in a role to make the roles matter and you have to make the roles matter to retain new users. New players can't fill a niche that doesn't exist and if they aren't important in any way then they'll leave the game before they can be (if ever). You have to divide and exclude abilities and accessibility to items to make veteran players not only retain significance (and thus retain their membership), but force them to make new players significant to them (which they currently are not except to explode for fun).
Anyway, that's my idea to retaining users and it uses a framework that already exists but just isn't fully realized.
New players come in and they expect a motivation to a role. There isn't really any. I can play the game, get high licenses in all areas (not giving a shit about any in-game backstory or which corporation is what and who hates who) and have access to everything (aside from factional exclusive items). There is no value in pursueing any role. The devs have relied on guilds to create this role motivation but it fails utterly in the small numbers of players currently in game. No guild can afford to be a one role guild. There is no mutual trader guild, no super nationalist (military), no strictly miner, etc. There aren't enough players to make the guilds big enough to maintain that dynamic and so many have alts just to be members of other factional guilds that their own existences make no sense in relation to their inter-guild actions. Manufacturing alone is only now possible in short spurts of conquering and hoping not more than 3 other opposing faction members are awake and feel like ruining your day. It's so broken most players only find entertainment in turning the game into a simple fps in a given sector or two.
The cost to entry in the game for a new player then ends up relying on mostly sucking up to one of the remaining big vet filled guilds. Trying to strike it out a new is a seamingly laughable waste of time since the only interesting thing to do is build a trident or attack people trying to. A player's only other alternative is playing the various single player missions . But none of those offer a path to advancing significantly in the game in a way that is not possible outside of the missions.
If you want to have the game still function with fewer players and not just devolve into a stupid 3d fps game that just drives all new players away :
1. first make sure serco and itani can't even be neutral to eachother. They're at war.
2. UIT can only achieve respect with both.
3 On top of that you can't achieve anything more than respect with a corporation unless you are employed by them. (and you can only be employed by one at any one time and you revert to a respect cap when you leave or lower)
4. Corporate employment missions now exist (as well as corporate exclusive items and manufacturing only available to employees). These can be available right after training. There are a lot of corporations and new players can carve out _USEFUL_ niches to vets and guilds quickly.
5. Corporate employement creates automatic mutually exclusive relations with other corps. Choosing a corporation (or none) to be employed by is not to be taken lightly.
6. Some corporations defend more heavily than others and some take much longer to regain standing once lost. Players have to be aware of who they are attacking and where much more so than now.
7. 1 corporation will be chosen as an actual pirate "corporation". They actively seak out non-military vessels and attack in nearby systems and wormholes. Dont matter who you are. A few bases are scattered in the corners of the universe.
8. Pirate corporation will recruit players who have no coporate employment, have less than neutral standing with a certain number of other corporations.
9. Agreeing to be a pirate allows you to dock on the pirate station without harm. You automatically become KOS on whatever corp the pirates have recently attacked. (automatically any nationalist capital).
We now get a system where when we are low on players, new players are signifcantly more important and can find immensely popular roles in helping vet players get things done and not feel like they're completely grinding their time away getting no where. By splitting the universe up into logical coporations (that already exist but dont really matter much) and making them functional we make it impossible for any one player to be a jack of all trades.
At first vet players may think this is bad but it's really very good even for them. Trying to get anything done manufacturing or any real large scale event is either monumentally annoying due the opposition of even a hand full of players or so immensely easy that it removes all meaning from doing it. Now everyone has to work with some number of other people to do anything. Everything becomes Cogs in a system where you still have rivalries but you also have necessary alliances and you have to work together. The makeup of guilds becomes a matter of having members in key positions and also allows guilds to maintain a role of significance of any single aspect of the game. A mining guild wont simply be strong by being populated by vets who do nothing but mine all day so much that they all have bm3's and nobody else wants to be bored out of the goddamn mind that much to do the same. A mining guild can be very strong simply by having a number of members in all the various mining corporations ...giving them access to exclusive mining tools and options, advantages that begin from the start of a new player. Basically, the fewer players we have the more important and awesome any new player will feel and be. Vets will need them. Guilds will need them. They wont feel useless coming out of the gate by any means.
You have to create importance in investing time in a role to make the roles matter and you have to make the roles matter to retain new users. New players can't fill a niche that doesn't exist and if they aren't important in any way then they'll leave the game before they can be (if ever). You have to divide and exclude abilities and accessibility to items to make veteran players not only retain significance (and thus retain their membership), but force them to make new players significant to them (which they currently are not except to explode for fun).
Anyway, that's my idea to retaining users and it uses a framework that already exists but just isn't fully realized.
VO is a great MMORPG game but not a real Sandbox ....and this why dont have the properly depth to can keep the interest of any new or old player in high levels and for a long playing time....for example many traders from our Guild stop playing why dont like to every time need to search/chatting for selling their goods ....VO needs desperately a trade platform/market to can put our goodies and after feel free to continue our game ...new ideas for players to players trading ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28760 , http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28357 , http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28803 , http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28916) and more dynamic game economy and maybe an Economic wars ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28732 ) ...a cool new idea...
Also the crafting in VO is been stationary for a very very long time ...new Tridents variants and maybe a new tier of ships ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28712 ) and also new craftable capital weapons ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28913 ) and addons ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28551 , http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28891 , http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28883 , http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28845 , http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28425 , and many more suggestions..) needed to come in game urgently ...
With a few changes in game and some new features u can attract many players and also give the motivations /mood to new and also old players to return in game for some a different reason until all the new changes (when their comes ...ever???) ...like a Casino ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/27971 , http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28934 ) gambling needs money and if u not lucky need to find them ...in VO have many ways to make money!! ....and to make the Station banners more useful /helpful ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28930 )...
Deneb wars need and can easily to refreshing interest of Nations with a few but proper changes /new features like Conquerable stations ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28810 ) and also to fix blockades ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28673 , http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28933 , http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28941 )....and maybe a sorted way for Deneb with a new sector bonus to VO....:)
New fighters /variants and new weapons always helps ... in forums have so many suggestions for this with plenty of ideas....
Make the Badges to worthwhile and gives more interest to personal advantage ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28798 , http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/21368?page=8 ) and maybe is time to bring in VO and Guilds Badges ... hehhehe...
I think im not have forgetting something special....and if ...anyone can add it or suggest something new....:)
Cheers....
PS : hehhehe...and yes ...i forgot it....a grey nation?
...was a funny thread ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28259 )..scenario...
Also the crafting in VO is been stationary for a very very long time ...new Tridents variants and maybe a new tier of ships ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28712 ) and also new craftable capital weapons ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28913 ) and addons ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28551 , http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28891 , http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28883 , http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28845 , http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28425 , and many more suggestions..) needed to come in game urgently ...
With a few changes in game and some new features u can attract many players and also give the motivations /mood to new and also old players to return in game for some a different reason until all the new changes (when their comes ...ever???) ...like a Casino ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/27971 , http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28934 ) gambling needs money and if u not lucky need to find them ...in VO have many ways to make money!! ....and to make the Station banners more useful /helpful ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28930 )...
Deneb wars need and can easily to refreshing interest of Nations with a few but proper changes /new features like Conquerable stations ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28810 ) and also to fix blockades ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28673 , http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28933 , http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28941 )....and maybe a sorted way for Deneb with a new sector bonus to VO....:)
New fighters /variants and new weapons always helps ... in forums have so many suggestions for this with plenty of ideas....
Make the Badges to worthwhile and gives more interest to personal advantage ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28798 , http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/21368?page=8 ) and maybe is time to bring in VO and Guilds Badges ... hehhehe...
I think im not have forgetting something special....and if ...anyone can add it or suggest something new....:)
Cheers....
PS : hehhehe...and yes ...i forgot it....a grey nation?
...was a funny thread ( http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28259 )..scenario...
The reason I stay around is because it's a very good experience, and it's a very good game. If someone had told me that there was a computer game out there that could entertain me for a decade, I would have looked at him like he was crazy. VO has done that.
I don't pretend to know what could "fix" VO, I just appreciate it for what it is. More players will come when the time is right. Comparing VO to a restaurant isn't a good analogy; in a sense, VO is the exact opposite. Rather than consuming a product that has been planned out from the beginning, you are bringing to the table all your experience, associations, attitude, and skill, creating an entirely new experience for those players whose lives you intersect in a butterfly-effect-like domino chain of interactions.
VO is a game; it's not a replacement for life. In the long-view, it is what you make it.
I don't pretend to know what could "fix" VO, I just appreciate it for what it is. More players will come when the time is right. Comparing VO to a restaurant isn't a good analogy; in a sense, VO is the exact opposite. Rather than consuming a product that has been planned out from the beginning, you are bringing to the table all your experience, associations, attitude, and skill, creating an entirely new experience for those players whose lives you intersect in a butterfly-effect-like domino chain of interactions.
VO is a game; it's not a replacement for life. In the long-view, it is what you make it.
I think the lack of urgent exists only in your perception. There are hard limits to what can be done with the availablerestrained, mostly labor, that Guild Software has available. I have on occasion disagreed with the priorities and direction for VO that Incarnate sets. However, I have never doubted his passion, commitment or focus on making this game live up to the potential of his vision.
I respect your enthusiasm as well as your frustration. Unfortunately there is no magic pill short of gobs of cash and a pretrained staff of developers,testers, artists and designers that is going to change the current reality of incremental improvement made over a long period of time.
A number of vets do what they can to encourage retention. Every upate that comes out makes VO a little more appealing not just for long time players, but for new subscribers as well. To imply that the devs are afraid or somehow indifferent towards player retention is to my mind insulting towards all of the blood sweat and tears that they have invested over the last decade.
Enjoy VO for what it is or don't. Have faith in the long term possibilities or don't. I have swung both sides of this pendulum.
Please continue to provide feedback of your experiences and ideas. Just be aware that your sense of urgency is up against the breakwater of reality.
I respect your enthusiasm as well as your frustration. Unfortunately there is no magic pill short of gobs of cash and a pretrained staff of developers,testers, artists and designers that is going to change the current reality of incremental improvement made over a long period of time.
A number of vets do what they can to encourage retention. Every upate that comes out makes VO a little more appealing not just for long time players, but for new subscribers as well. To imply that the devs are afraid or somehow indifferent towards player retention is to my mind insulting towards all of the blood sweat and tears that they have invested over the last decade.
Enjoy VO for what it is or don't. Have faith in the long term possibilities or don't. I have swung both sides of this pendulum.
Please continue to provide feedback of your experiences and ideas. Just be aware that your sense of urgency is up against the breakwater of reality.
But less focus should be placed upon end-game
I had to look at my calendar to make sure it wasn't April 1st. VO has spent oodles of Dev time trying to attract and retain noobs over the past several years; actual end-game content development has been lacking overall and half-assed when done. cellsafemode's post more or less nails the problem with VO: in its current (and past) state, it's like a multiplayer EV:Nova without any real factions, hidden areas to explore, powerful new tech to obtain (everything has to be perfectly balanced!), or plot lines to pursue. Which is to say it's a boring RPG with amusing FPS action.
I had to look at my calendar to make sure it wasn't April 1st. VO has spent oodles of Dev time trying to attract and retain noobs over the past several years; actual end-game content development has been lacking overall and half-assed when done. cellsafemode's post more or less nails the problem with VO: in its current (and past) state, it's like a multiplayer EV:Nova without any real factions, hidden areas to explore, powerful new tech to obtain (everything has to be perfectly balanced!), or plot lines to pursue. Which is to say it's a boring RPG with amusing FPS action.
What's the suggestion here? Ban all of the other users who you think have the wrong mindset despite the fact that they're still paying $10/mo to play this after all the years? Or is the problem with Guild Software, and you believe they should sell this "gem" of a game off to some big corporation who would be able to better market and monetize it? (Dungeon Keeper comes to mind here... bleh)
It tends to be helpful to provide clear, concise descriptions of what you think can be done to make things better. Keep them separate in individual threads unless they're directly related to one another.
Example:
A lot of newbies get lost after reaching level three. The informative blurb that pops up when you level up usually appears on the screen for only a few seconds while flying around, possibly fighting bots. Suggested fix: Make a dialog box appear when they dock at the station, explaining what new opportunities await them.
It's also worth noting that the wiki is community maintained. If you find something outdated, update it. Be the change you wish to see in the world...
It tends to be helpful to provide clear, concise descriptions of what you think can be done to make things better. Keep them separate in individual threads unless they're directly related to one another.
Example:
A lot of newbies get lost after reaching level three. The informative blurb that pops up when you level up usually appears on the screen for only a few seconds while flying around, possibly fighting bots. Suggested fix: Make a dialog box appear when they dock at the station, explaining what new opportunities await them.
It's also worth noting that the wiki is community maintained. If you find something outdated, update it. Be the change you wish to see in the world...