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dude. I ain't wasting anytime reading more then some of this stuff.
most pirates, as have been said, are thugs and are NOT nice. at. all.
but others, like Icarus,(well, just Icarus :P ) will give a few mins. but, like n00b said, most traders can't be trusted not to run away.
Blackhole Goldclaw
most pirates, as have been said, are thugs and are NOT nice. at. all.
but others, like Icarus,(well, just Icarus :P ) will give a few mins. but, like n00b said, most traders can't be trusted not to run away.
Blackhole Goldclaw
Give me a fair chance at beating a pirate in my heavilly armed heavy trader... and Ill consider it to be honourable.
But as long as they don't stand a freaking chance then pirates will never be honourable or even part of the game. Im not going to pay a game just for getting victimized. I expect to get paid for that role...
But if pirates came in a centaur(or wraith, prom, ragnarok) and tried to pirate my centaur then I would stay and fight because that would be honourable, but not when they come after you in a vult, cent or valk while the heavy ships can be considered to be a waste of money.
And don't come with the statement about get an escort... since im not going to pay my entire profit on hiring 1 escort. then ill just trade in my vult or cent, even if it only gives me the chance of hauling 1 unit at a time. Or maybe ill just bot or... Ill find something. Not to mention that centaurs should not need escorts, since I expect the different capships to be the big haulers needing a couple of escorts while delivering 500+ cargounits while the mid capships will deliver 250+ (and these will need 1 - 5 escorts...)
But as long as they don't stand a freaking chance then pirates will never be honourable or even part of the game. Im not going to pay a game just for getting victimized. I expect to get paid for that role...
But if pirates came in a centaur(or wraith, prom, ragnarok) and tried to pirate my centaur then I would stay and fight because that would be honourable, but not when they come after you in a vult, cent or valk while the heavy ships can be considered to be a waste of money.
And don't come with the statement about get an escort... since im not going to pay my entire profit on hiring 1 escort. then ill just trade in my vult or cent, even if it only gives me the chance of hauling 1 unit at a time. Or maybe ill just bot or... Ill find something. Not to mention that centaurs should not need escorts, since I expect the different capships to be the big haulers needing a couple of escorts while delivering 500+ cargounits while the mid capships will deliver 250+ (and these will need 1 - 5 escorts...)
First off, a centaur should only have a remote chance at best of winning against a fighter, its a trade ship. And pirates are very much a part of the game, and are just doing thier role as pirates. If you dont like pirates, stay in whats considered safe space or hire an escort, no one said you have to pay your escort an exorbitant amount. You have to deal with uber aggressive bots that hunt in packs, I dont see why the occasional pirate is much different. Pirating in a centaur makes about as much sense as trading with an SVG. We have our own breed of honor, and those that deal with us in other things than just running from us will attest to that. Hell, even some of the ones who run will attest to that.
a centaur is just as much a fighter as a vult. It is only a heavy ship. Meanign it packs a severe punch and can fedn of any threat of pirates as long as people within it have the same skill. People will not risk money and limb by flying a ship worth nothing (aka a coffin) to haul their precious tradegoods. It will be protected with the best available weapons and be as good as a fighter as any pirate variant.
HOWEVER once the capital ships come in and we are able to transport bulk amounts. Then I will agree that this ship will need an escort and should only have a remote chance at winning.
And not as it is now, namely the tradeships being the victims of the pirates, since nobody in real life is going to pay to act as a victim.
Besides the centaur would be a perfect ship to pirate the centaur, only add a piratevariant... Since you need to haul off all the cargo that you pirated...
PS: the prometheus is a good example of what I call a heavy trader, and perfect pirateship. Once it gets some good weapons. It only demands a different way of flying, not the standard hit and run tactic which you can use with high agility ships.
But sure why would pirates ruin there fun by using the same target as the traders need to use to haul their goods... Meh...
HOWEVER once the capital ships come in and we are able to transport bulk amounts. Then I will agree that this ship will need an escort and should only have a remote chance at winning.
And not as it is now, namely the tradeships being the victims of the pirates, since nobody in real life is going to pay to act as a victim.
Besides the centaur would be a perfect ship to pirate the centaur, only add a piratevariant... Since you need to haul off all the cargo that you pirated...
PS: the prometheus is a good example of what I call a heavy trader, and perfect pirateship. Once it gets some good weapons. It only demands a different way of flying, not the standard hit and run tactic which you can use with high agility ships.
But sure why would pirates ruin there fun by using the same target as the traders need to use to haul their goods... Meh...
A centuar is not near a fighter, and you dont have to be a victim, you can always fight back. And if you have done any pirating you would know that slow ships like centaurs and proms are FAR from perfect pirateships, they are too slow to be effective in pirating, which requires high manueverability and speed in order to pull off. Expecting pirates to use the same ship as you so you can have a "fair" chance when going into dangerous territory is a bit illogical too, traders use centaurs and the likes because they are great trade ships, pirates use the lighter, faster fighters because they are great for pirating. The first time you can run down a maurauder in a prom is when ill say its even remotly acceptable as a pirate ship. Making every ship able to do the same things would kill a lot of variety in this game, as there would be no purpose to using different ships. If the centaur was on par in combat with a centurion, why would anyone bother to use a centurion? And once again I must reiterate, it is VERY easy to avoid pirates, dont go into pirate space. Its the same principle as not mining in sectors with arklans, you must weigh the risk against the rewards and make a choice whether or not to do something, being a trader I would think that would come naturally.
Tramshed,
please read my statement again. I never stated that they are the same or near the same. I stated that a centaur should be able to win from a centurion just as it should be vice versa.
Why? Very easilly stated, the centaur demands a different way of flying, but as long as you feel comfi with that style of flying and yout opponent has the same skill as you in a centurion then both should be on par with each other. Do you think that it is logical that a trader is just going to go out there and risk all he has and his own life for a little bit of profit when he knows that he has no or practically no chance in hell that he will succeed or that he will be able to actually fend back for himself. No, no trader will do that since first of all the risks are to high, second of all people have a sense of preservation and will make sure that their ship is as good as a trader as it is at defending itself.
Once more if somebody is trading in a marauder, then use a valk or a pirate marauder version (corvus...) or a vulture to get to him. You'll be able to fight him decently and the oponent is able to defend himself (so has a chence). But isn't it a bit logical that when the oponent uses the best available tradeship that has the ability to defend itself as I stated (with more cu then a centaur), that a slower more bulkier ship has a hard time keeping up. And that any smart pirate will then use another shiptype.
There where people that used to pirate in a bus and in prom, but they didn't stand a chance against a marauder, but sure as hell did against a centaur, wraith, atlas, bus...
Once more, in a centaur you don't stand a chance to fight back, so why even bother. Im definately sure that if people had a chance to win against a pirate in their centaur that you will see a lot more traders actually fighting back in stead of immediately running. Why do I know, because that is what I used to do. At least untill the days of 3.2 where it was all about agility and having no agility meant that you became a victim effectively reducing the usage of the heavy ships. What I am constantly saying is that heavy ships should have a chance to defeat a smaller craft, especially since the heavy ships at the moment are still fighter types.
Besides people will always use a ship that they prefer, there will always be people that prefer the centaur over a marauder if the centaur had a chance to fend off people but required another way of flying. Or people that would prefer a prom over a valk (I am one of them, although I am itani due to the backstory). Or people that prefer a vult over a cent or over a valk (maybe the slim profile fits in your strengths while you don't like the fatness of the valk and don't mind the lesser degree of armor). Or maybe you prefer the wraith above an atlas or a centaur because of it being an in between.
That is what balance is about and what makes a game fun to play. And what makes a game evolve around skill in stead of around licences. THIS is also what kept me playing in the old days. Slap on this balance rpg elements like missions and stuff like this and I guarantee that youll have a hit and for which I will be delighted to pay. But since the influx of more and more kiddies that love to see people go boom but don't think about the bigger picture and are to afraid to go boom themselves this has never occured anymore effectively corrupting the nice community that the game was before (with the exception of some known [REMOVED by FM due to rudeness], which where however in a miority).
But hey, don't believe me, don't listen to me, do whatever you think is best. But I am however sure that if this balance existed you would have had more fun by being a pirate then you would have now.
cheers
PS: I know that there will always be people that prefer to run, then to fight. But let them run its their loss, have fun with the people that are actually willing to pvp. It will enrichen the game more then to make people pvp by acting as pirates. Since this will only create bad attitudes towards all in game. Just think about the leathal, icarus, aka, ... and others debacle. Don't forget, have fun not by spoiling someone elses fun...
please read my statement again. I never stated that they are the same or near the same. I stated that a centaur should be able to win from a centurion just as it should be vice versa.
Why? Very easilly stated, the centaur demands a different way of flying, but as long as you feel comfi with that style of flying and yout opponent has the same skill as you in a centurion then both should be on par with each other. Do you think that it is logical that a trader is just going to go out there and risk all he has and his own life for a little bit of profit when he knows that he has no or practically no chance in hell that he will succeed or that he will be able to actually fend back for himself. No, no trader will do that since first of all the risks are to high, second of all people have a sense of preservation and will make sure that their ship is as good as a trader as it is at defending itself.
Once more if somebody is trading in a marauder, then use a valk or a pirate marauder version (corvus...) or a vulture to get to him. You'll be able to fight him decently and the oponent is able to defend himself (so has a chence). But isn't it a bit logical that when the oponent uses the best available tradeship that has the ability to defend itself as I stated (with more cu then a centaur), that a slower more bulkier ship has a hard time keeping up. And that any smart pirate will then use another shiptype.
There where people that used to pirate in a bus and in prom, but they didn't stand a chance against a marauder, but sure as hell did against a centaur, wraith, atlas, bus...
Once more, in a centaur you don't stand a chance to fight back, so why even bother. Im definately sure that if people had a chance to win against a pirate in their centaur that you will see a lot more traders actually fighting back in stead of immediately running. Why do I know, because that is what I used to do. At least untill the days of 3.2 where it was all about agility and having no agility meant that you became a victim effectively reducing the usage of the heavy ships. What I am constantly saying is that heavy ships should have a chance to defeat a smaller craft, especially since the heavy ships at the moment are still fighter types.
Besides people will always use a ship that they prefer, there will always be people that prefer the centaur over a marauder if the centaur had a chance to fend off people but required another way of flying. Or people that would prefer a prom over a valk (I am one of them, although I am itani due to the backstory). Or people that prefer a vult over a cent or over a valk (maybe the slim profile fits in your strengths while you don't like the fatness of the valk and don't mind the lesser degree of armor). Or maybe you prefer the wraith above an atlas or a centaur because of it being an in between.
That is what balance is about and what makes a game fun to play. And what makes a game evolve around skill in stead of around licences. THIS is also what kept me playing in the old days. Slap on this balance rpg elements like missions and stuff like this and I guarantee that youll have a hit and for which I will be delighted to pay. But since the influx of more and more kiddies that love to see people go boom but don't think about the bigger picture and are to afraid to go boom themselves this has never occured anymore effectively corrupting the nice community that the game was before (with the exception of some known [REMOVED by FM due to rudeness], which where however in a miority).
But hey, don't believe me, don't listen to me, do whatever you think is best. But I am however sure that if this balance existed you would have had more fun by being a pirate then you would have now.
cheers
PS: I know that there will always be people that prefer to run, then to fight. But let them run its their loss, have fun with the people that are actually willing to pvp. It will enrichen the game more then to make people pvp by acting as pirates. Since this will only create bad attitudes towards all in game. Just think about the leathal, icarus, aka, ... and others debacle. Don't forget, have fun not by spoiling someone elses fun...
"I stated that a centaur should be able to win from a centurion just as it should be vice versa."
I think we nearly have ship balance (see below). It sounds like what you are asking for, Ren, is equality in combat.
I don't think it is possible to both have complete ship vs. ship equality AND have great diversity at the same time. A Centaur is a huge cargo ship, and if a pilots wants to fly it they are sacrificing safety for profit. A centurion pilot gives up cargo space (profit) and weapon slots for high speed and agility. These are informed choices. An excess in one area creates a deficit in another. That's balance. We can strive for combat equality by limiting choices, but where's the fun in that?
I think we nearly have ship balance (see below). It sounds like what you are asking for, Ren, is equality in combat.
I don't think it is possible to both have complete ship vs. ship equality AND have great diversity at the same time. A Centaur is a huge cargo ship, and if a pilots wants to fly it they are sacrificing safety for profit. A centurion pilot gives up cargo space (profit) and weapon slots for high speed and agility. These are informed choices. An excess in one area creates a deficit in another. That's balance. We can strive for combat equality by limiting choices, but where's the fun in that?
yes,
you give up agility and high speed in favor for armor and cargo. But this does not mean that it should not be able to defend itself properly... Agility in itself does not mean being good at defense. If you can use your extra armor as a way to deter people from actually being able to kill you then that is a way to defend yourselve to.
I was however advocating that ships should have the option of taking a higher agility ship out. Not necessarily by using agility but by using its armor and probably as decent weapons as the small and agile craft has. People do not trade to act as a victim. And this means that you make the weapons that are mounted at least able to take out the other ship if used correctly. And not as it is now, namely big ships have weapons that first of all are ineffective, second of all are inferion and third of all are used to their full potential on agile ships. Where are the weapons that have the same potential but on less agile crafts? Wasn't it the idea that a ship should be able to beat any other ship based on the person flying it, not on the type of ship. Shouldn't the type of ship only make out a small difference but not gigantic but in the hands of equal skilled people decide who wins and who losses, although it will all depend on who is comfortable with the employed fightingtactic. Is it to much to ask that as long as heavy ships can be considered to be crap, that pirates don't state they are honourfull when tbey hunt these easy prey in their supreme fightercrafts... Is that to much to ask... ?
Besides the centaur is NOT a huge cargoship, it is just a heavy cargoship. The huge cargoship are the ones that are able to unload 200 cu at least and which come in between the frigate sized ships and the fighters and bombers... And if the centaur does need to fulfill that role then I suggest to up its cargocapacity dramatically, since the marauder beats it in all regards. Which has decent hull, higher aglity and more cargo... Im especially a bit mesmerized by the last partn if you advocate that the centaur is a huge tradeship and should be unable to defend itself properly. Since if that is still the case, then I suggest to decrease the cargocapacity on the marauder to at least wraith levels, although it might be more in line with an atlas based on agility and general appearance and even the marauder specialness does not count as an adequate explanation. But lets wait untill the devs finished the heavy ship balancing and the heavy port weapons. I hope they will get a decent overhaul and make it possible to actually defend yourselve in a heavy ship stead of acting as targetpractice and ending up in a coffin.
cheers.
Does this make my point clear enough?
PS: Why do you think I was a big advocator of making the gauss and rockets unusuable on the small ships but let the rockets start from the medium sized ones, whereas the gauss started from the big one. But this has been partly resolved by the strength equivalent addition (namely mass and inability for the agility to get influenced by adding certain number of weapons).
you give up agility and high speed in favor for armor and cargo. But this does not mean that it should not be able to defend itself properly... Agility in itself does not mean being good at defense. If you can use your extra armor as a way to deter people from actually being able to kill you then that is a way to defend yourselve to.
I was however advocating that ships should have the option of taking a higher agility ship out. Not necessarily by using agility but by using its armor and probably as decent weapons as the small and agile craft has. People do not trade to act as a victim. And this means that you make the weapons that are mounted at least able to take out the other ship if used correctly. And not as it is now, namely big ships have weapons that first of all are ineffective, second of all are inferion and third of all are used to their full potential on agile ships. Where are the weapons that have the same potential but on less agile crafts? Wasn't it the idea that a ship should be able to beat any other ship based on the person flying it, not on the type of ship. Shouldn't the type of ship only make out a small difference but not gigantic but in the hands of equal skilled people decide who wins and who losses, although it will all depend on who is comfortable with the employed fightingtactic. Is it to much to ask that as long as heavy ships can be considered to be crap, that pirates don't state they are honourfull when tbey hunt these easy prey in their supreme fightercrafts... Is that to much to ask... ?
Besides the centaur is NOT a huge cargoship, it is just a heavy cargoship. The huge cargoship are the ones that are able to unload 200 cu at least and which come in between the frigate sized ships and the fighters and bombers... And if the centaur does need to fulfill that role then I suggest to up its cargocapacity dramatically, since the marauder beats it in all regards. Which has decent hull, higher aglity and more cargo... Im especially a bit mesmerized by the last partn if you advocate that the centaur is a huge tradeship and should be unable to defend itself properly. Since if that is still the case, then I suggest to decrease the cargocapacity on the marauder to at least wraith levels, although it might be more in line with an atlas based on agility and general appearance and even the marauder specialness does not count as an adequate explanation. But lets wait untill the devs finished the heavy ship balancing and the heavy port weapons. I hope they will get a decent overhaul and make it possible to actually defend yourselve in a heavy ship stead of acting as targetpractice and ending up in a coffin.
cheers.
Does this make my point clear enough?
PS: Why do you think I was a big advocator of making the gauss and rockets unusuable on the small ships but let the rockets start from the medium sized ones, whereas the gauss started from the big one. But this has been partly resolved by the strength equivalent addition (namely mass and inability for the agility to get influenced by adding certain number of weapons).
I don't entirely agree with the amount of combat equality I think you are advocating, but I do hope that the upcoming tweaks for the larger ships bring things closer to what you are seeking.
i think this thread gets a big o'l lock... hopefully
would have been done already if FM deemed that necessary.
Anyway im waiting for the heavy ships redux...
EDIT
Still FM, I don't understand why you don't agree. Was the game not supposed to go about skill and not levels? If this is the case is it then strange that every ship if driven by a more skilled person should be able to take out any other ship? With the exception of frigates and other xmill+ cost ships.
This in itself does imply that all the ships will only differ slightly, or am I wrong?
Anyway, my point is that as long as shiptypes can be considered to be inferior then it is far from "honourfull" or even to boast about that you took out a cargoship. If you do that to his fightership then ok, ill agree but not to the ships that have been considered to be the milkingcow of the pirating universe. Which as it stands now is only deemed to be necessary because its the only thing that makes the game less boring. But I wonder once some real content gets added in stead of some haphazard attempts at, if people will still think the same.
If I am wrong and the game does intent to be based on levels and not skill, then I do however agree and will STFU. But then in my opinion the game will have lost a lot of its distinctive appeal.
Anyway im waiting for the heavy ships redux...
EDIT
Still FM, I don't understand why you don't agree. Was the game not supposed to go about skill and not levels? If this is the case is it then strange that every ship if driven by a more skilled person should be able to take out any other ship? With the exception of frigates and other xmill+ cost ships.
This in itself does imply that all the ships will only differ slightly, or am I wrong?
Anyway, my point is that as long as shiptypes can be considered to be inferior then it is far from "honourfull" or even to boast about that you took out a cargoship. If you do that to his fightership then ok, ill agree but not to the ships that have been considered to be the milkingcow of the pirating universe. Which as it stands now is only deemed to be necessary because its the only thing that makes the game less boring. But I wonder once some real content gets added in stead of some haphazard attempts at, if people will still think the same.
If I am wrong and the game does intent to be based on levels and not skill, then I do however agree and will STFU. But then in my opinion the game will have lost a lot of its distinctive appeal.
I don't see what the issue is exactly. If you want to test your skill against other players then hunt other players. There's many options for that such as CtC, Piracy, Antipiracy, and so on.
If you want to trade then be aware grey space is a dangerous area.
I've been trading in grey space for the last week or so now. In that time i've been shot up once. I knew it was coming and didn't prepare in anyway so that was a lot of my fault. I've been bailed up once for 20000c. In that time I've made over a million credits and +800 standing points.
Without pirates there's no use to having grey space. And I find grey space to be a very interesting part of the game.
If you want to trade then be aware grey space is a dangerous area.
I've been trading in grey space for the last week or so now. In that time i've been shot up once. I knew it was coming and didn't prepare in anyway so that was a lot of my fault. I've been bailed up once for 20000c. In that time I've made over a million credits and +800 standing points.
Without pirates there's no use to having grey space. And I find grey space to be a very interesting part of the game.
Martin, I agree that it is interesting but only because there is no other content then people acting (or trying to) as pirates. But this is only interesting mostly because of the lack of 'real' content befitting a premium MMORPG (since the price is at around 10 euro a month).
This 'content' should be missions and stories tieing into the backgroundstory or some of the people within the game. But im sure that they are coming.
but once they are in, I doubt that pirates are still going to be that much wanted in this game.
Not to mention that if you are a trader, it is more fun to actively fight someone chasing you for your goods then just have to hand it in because the heavy tradeships are not worth a dime and never have been since the 3.2 era. Another reason why I am opposed against piracy is because of the reason that as in the past once people realise it has more profit then trading then you will see people flock to the pirating part, and this will mean that you will get an exurbant amount of pirates and a couple of traders just being there to act as victims. It happened in the past and nothing keeps it from happening now. Since the real profit are not the money, since you can get that also buy pirating or botting or... but are the pvp skills that you get thaught. And these are priceless since they will help you also in acquiring faster higher levels or increase your own fun...
cheers
PS: once more people boasting that they are honurfull since they were able to kill a tradingship in their valk or vult. Whooptiedoo you took a perfect fightingship to slaughter a defensiveless fat aircraft. Now really that involves skill..., in my eyes it just involves the person who has th ebetter ship in stead of the better 'skill'. Which once more contests the essence of the game, as laid out by the devs somewhere in the opening introduction.
This 'content' should be missions and stories tieing into the backgroundstory or some of the people within the game. But im sure that they are coming.
but once they are in, I doubt that pirates are still going to be that much wanted in this game.
Not to mention that if you are a trader, it is more fun to actively fight someone chasing you for your goods then just have to hand it in because the heavy tradeships are not worth a dime and never have been since the 3.2 era. Another reason why I am opposed against piracy is because of the reason that as in the past once people realise it has more profit then trading then you will see people flock to the pirating part, and this will mean that you will get an exurbant amount of pirates and a couple of traders just being there to act as victims. It happened in the past and nothing keeps it from happening now. Since the real profit are not the money, since you can get that also buy pirating or botting or... but are the pvp skills that you get thaught. And these are priceless since they will help you also in acquiring faster higher levels or increase your own fun...
cheers
PS: once more people boasting that they are honurfull since they were able to kill a tradingship in their valk or vult. Whooptiedoo you took a perfect fightingship to slaughter a defensiveless fat aircraft. Now really that involves skill..., in my eyes it just involves the person who has th ebetter ship in stead of the better 'skill'. Which once more contests the essence of the game, as laid out by the devs somewhere in the opening introduction.
ok renegade, I've been following this thread avidly, and i just dont think I'm ever going to agree with you. If you want a chance in combat while trading in grey space, you have to give up the centaur. take an atlas or a marauder, trade in a warthog mineral extractor, use a ship with a smaller cargo hold that has some better agility.
I understand what you are saying, that a larger, bulkier ship with heavier guns and more armor should have a chance against a lighter faster ship, andI agree with that, but that is not the centaurs role IMO. the centaur is a small bulk carrier, something like a 12ft U-Haul. It's meant to be used in safe areas.
For grey space trading the prometheous is more for the role you describe. (at least it will be if it ever gets tweaked right) It will have to take a defensive role, it's job will be to live, and drive the attackers off, probably not to kill them, because once they reach a certain amount of damage, they will just run away.
I understand what you are saying, that a larger, bulkier ship with heavier guns and more armor should have a chance against a lighter faster ship, andI agree with that, but that is not the centaurs role IMO. the centaur is a small bulk carrier, something like a 12ft U-Haul. It's meant to be used in safe areas.
For grey space trading the prometheous is more for the role you describe. (at least it will be if it ever gets tweaked right) It will have to take a defensive role, it's job will be to live, and drive the attackers off, probably not to kill them, because once they reach a certain amount of damage, they will just run away.
The thing is, as itani I am not supposed to get access to the prometheus. And since there isn't any other craft available with similar options, why can't we make the centaur then a slightly knocked down version of the prometheus mk3?
One more thing, isn't the centaur larger, bulkier and has bigger guns then a higher faster ship? Isn't it the heaviest and bulkiest general tradeship available? So by your own logic you see eye to eye with me, although you state that you can never agree on what im postulating. And no the ragnarok is not a tradeship but a heavy assaultship, meaning it uses its armor and heavy offense to destroy and being able to put as much hurt as humanly possible on the oponents. Which for the moment is also a joke.
Anyway, my decission about stating that the centaur needs a serious beef up if you want to really keep it as a target only and not give it a chance to have a decent fight with it (so being able to use armor as a first and only line of defense), then you need to seriously up the amount of cu available (indicative number = 100 - 120) on a centaur (and maybe even do away with the 2 small slots) or decrease the amount available on a marauder drastically. Although im in favour of the first option.
Then and only then I will agree that it fulfills its purpose as targetpractice but with a serious profitability. Since at that time you can hire 1 - 2 people to cover for you in grey space.
At the same time I suggest to make higher trademissions in or towards grey space then unable to need more then the atlas capacity untill you have access to a marauder with one of all the available factions. Maybe offsetting this by reducing the reward of the missions in contradiction to doing the same mission with a marauder.
Once more, how can it be a small bulk carrier when the light and agile craft surpasses its cu capacity easilly ? Or that missions in grey space require you to use a centaur to be able to complete it successfully?
cheers
EDIT: at the same time you could make a group tradingmission one revolving around delivering a centaur filled with x in the allocated time to a certain sector. Or another groupmission would be to deliver 3 marauders filled with x, y and z in an allotted timeframe. At the same time you can add a piratemission that will also be an option in one group and that states that you have to kill that centaur or intercept the cargo of 2 marauders. If there are to little human pirates, then there will be added some npcs to do the job, if there are to little traders, then there will be added some npcs on the tradeside. This will then cater to both sides, and give both an opportunity to have fun. But then in a nice RPG coating.
While the normal missions cater somewhat more to botmissions/ solomissions then groupmissions.
One more thing, isn't the centaur larger, bulkier and has bigger guns then a higher faster ship? Isn't it the heaviest and bulkiest general tradeship available? So by your own logic you see eye to eye with me, although you state that you can never agree on what im postulating. And no the ragnarok is not a tradeship but a heavy assaultship, meaning it uses its armor and heavy offense to destroy and being able to put as much hurt as humanly possible on the oponents. Which for the moment is also a joke.
Anyway, my decission about stating that the centaur needs a serious beef up if you want to really keep it as a target only and not give it a chance to have a decent fight with it (so being able to use armor as a first and only line of defense), then you need to seriously up the amount of cu available (indicative number = 100 - 120) on a centaur (and maybe even do away with the 2 small slots) or decrease the amount available on a marauder drastically. Although im in favour of the first option.
Then and only then I will agree that it fulfills its purpose as targetpractice but with a serious profitability. Since at that time you can hire 1 - 2 people to cover for you in grey space.
At the same time I suggest to make higher trademissions in or towards grey space then unable to need more then the atlas capacity untill you have access to a marauder with one of all the available factions. Maybe offsetting this by reducing the reward of the missions in contradiction to doing the same mission with a marauder.
Once more, how can it be a small bulk carrier when the light and agile craft surpasses its cu capacity easilly ? Or that missions in grey space require you to use a centaur to be able to complete it successfully?
cheers
EDIT: at the same time you could make a group tradingmission one revolving around delivering a centaur filled with x in the allocated time to a certain sector. Or another groupmission would be to deliver 3 marauders filled with x, y and z in an allotted timeframe. At the same time you can add a piratemission that will also be an option in one group and that states that you have to kill that centaur or intercept the cargo of 2 marauders. If there are to little human pirates, then there will be added some npcs to do the job, if there are to little traders, then there will be added some npcs on the tradeside. This will then cater to both sides, and give both an opportunity to have fun. But then in a nice RPG coating.
While the normal missions cater somewhat more to botmissions/ solomissions then groupmissions.
Man, let's organize it in point form. [EDIT 1 : Deleted due to flamey nature of post. Sorry]
(a) >>>Another reason why I am opposed against piracy is because of the reason that as in the past once people realise it has more profit then trading then you will see people flock to the pirating part, and this will mean that you will get an exurbant amount of pirates and a couple of traders just being there to act as victims. <<<
Pirating is NOT profitable. In fact it's hard to survive as a pirate alone. I am doing an experiment this week by trying to survive with only money from pirating alone, and i am always poor. I think I've made about 300k in a week. You can make 5 twice that in 2 hours of trading. I suggest you try it before making this claim.
Trade ships are of course targets. But trade ship will make 300k in 1 hour, while on a good night I can make about 100k if I get lucky.
But then...you contradict your own point by saying :
>>> Since the real profit are not the money, since you can get that also buy pirating or botting or... but are the pvp skills that you get thaught.<<<
Bingo. It's not money. It's the PVP aspects of it.
(b) You seem to want an UBERSHIP :
SUPER-TRADER-ANTI-PIRATE-CENTAUR
Armor : 25000/25000
Mass : 4000kg
Cargo : 54cu
3 Small 2 Large Ports
Thrust 240
Cruise : 65m/s
Spin Torque 8.5
Max Speed 240
Drain 50s
Imagine what kind of disruption this will do to game balance.
If you want to trade, get into a TRADE-ship, and trade : you'll make 10 times more money than the pirate who robbed you. If you want to kill pirates, hop into a FIGHTER and hunt them down.
But if a tradeship becomes beefed up enough to take on a fighter ship, then what's the point of a fighter ship?
I would even advocate REMOVING the Large weap ports from Centaurs. Force them to hire an escort...hmm this is a good idea I'll post it elsewhere.
(I am sorry if this post is a bit flamey.)
(a) >>>Another reason why I am opposed against piracy is because of the reason that as in the past once people realise it has more profit then trading then you will see people flock to the pirating part, and this will mean that you will get an exurbant amount of pirates and a couple of traders just being there to act as victims. <<<
Pirating is NOT profitable. In fact it's hard to survive as a pirate alone. I am doing an experiment this week by trying to survive with only money from pirating alone, and i am always poor. I think I've made about 300k in a week. You can make 5 twice that in 2 hours of trading. I suggest you try it before making this claim.
Trade ships are of course targets. But trade ship will make 300k in 1 hour, while on a good night I can make about 100k if I get lucky.
But then...you contradict your own point by saying :
>>> Since the real profit are not the money, since you can get that also buy pirating or botting or... but are the pvp skills that you get thaught.<<<
Bingo. It's not money. It's the PVP aspects of it.
(b) You seem to want an UBERSHIP :
SUPER-TRADER-ANTI-PIRATE-CENTAUR
Armor : 25000/25000
Mass : 4000kg
Cargo : 54cu
3 Small 2 Large Ports
Thrust 240
Cruise : 65m/s
Spin Torque 8.5
Max Speed 240
Drain 50s
Imagine what kind of disruption this will do to game balance.
If you want to trade, get into a TRADE-ship, and trade : you'll make 10 times more money than the pirate who robbed you. If you want to kill pirates, hop into a FIGHTER and hunt them down.
But if a tradeship becomes beefed up enough to take on a fighter ship, then what's the point of a fighter ship?
I would even advocate REMOVING the Large weap ports from Centaurs. Force them to hire an escort...hmm this is a good idea I'll post it elsewhere.
(I am sorry if this post is a bit flamey.)
Im sure a pirate could do both trading and pirating at the same time...
Hmmm...
It seems that we've gone somewhat astray of the original topic of this thread, delving into ships, game balance, and such ... ok ...
IMO the devs have done a reasonable job of providing a variety of ships that perform a variety of tasks adequately. As far as game balance, the best that can be achieved there is through player skill, both in individual tactics and group strategy ... innovative play will always counter whatever tweaks the devs can come up with, unless they allow us to goad them into the ridiculous, which I hope none of us truly want...
Innovative tactics and strategy, and skillful play, will also be the best solution to generally avoiding pirates, or becoming the generally unavoidable pirate ... 100% success in either case would make this a very boring and/or distasteful game, for both the trader/miner and the pirate.
My main in this game has licenses 3/3/3/8/8, about 2.5 million credits, 0 player kills, and although I only occasionally play, I have lost count of the number of times I've wallowed around in an original model Centaur loaded full of Hel/Den/Pyr/Api/Lanth and it's been weeks since I've even seen a pirate. By the way, that Centaur has a mineral scanner and two mining beams...I choose not to waste mass on weapons. I don't say this to brag, only to illustrate a point...you can find ways to avoid pirates with the ships and equipment already available. I have every confidence the best of our pirates out there can be equally as innovative..I'm sure my luck won't last forever...it would get rather boring if it did.
By the way, one of the best ways to be continuously successful is to not be too specific about how you do it, and to know who you can trust ;) ... it's more about the players than the game, friends.
It seems that we've gone somewhat astray of the original topic of this thread, delving into ships, game balance, and such ... ok ...
IMO the devs have done a reasonable job of providing a variety of ships that perform a variety of tasks adequately. As far as game balance, the best that can be achieved there is through player skill, both in individual tactics and group strategy ... innovative play will always counter whatever tweaks the devs can come up with, unless they allow us to goad them into the ridiculous, which I hope none of us truly want...
Innovative tactics and strategy, and skillful play, will also be the best solution to generally avoiding pirates, or becoming the generally unavoidable pirate ... 100% success in either case would make this a very boring and/or distasteful game, for both the trader/miner and the pirate.
My main in this game has licenses 3/3/3/8/8, about 2.5 million credits, 0 player kills, and although I only occasionally play, I have lost count of the number of times I've wallowed around in an original model Centaur loaded full of Hel/Den/Pyr/Api/Lanth and it's been weeks since I've even seen a pirate. By the way, that Centaur has a mineral scanner and two mining beams...I choose not to waste mass on weapons. I don't say this to brag, only to illustrate a point...you can find ways to avoid pirates with the ships and equipment already available. I have every confidence the best of our pirates out there can be equally as innovative..I'm sure my luck won't last forever...it would get rather boring if it did.
By the way, one of the best ways to be continuously successful is to not be too specific about how you do it, and to know who you can trust ;) ... it's more about the players than the game, friends.
Ok, I've been deeming to stay out of this thread for a while, but I'm going to try and sum up everything i wish to say in a nice way without flaming anymore.
1. A centaur is a large cargo trade ship, while I have no problem with standing a chance against someone in a fighter ship, it should only stand a chance if you are more skillful than that fighter. If the centaur was on equal footing with the fighters there wouldnt be any point to using the fighters since the centaur has more ports, more cargo, and more armor.
2. Pirating is very very unprofitable. The only way to make money being a pirate is to make a name for yourself, that way people will pay you, or you will destroy them and thier cargo will pay you. And as it stands it is still pretty easy to run away after the last patch. Ask the pirates and traders who frequent grey space and youll see "Getting away" is still quite common and reasonably easy to do, its just no longer guarenteed.
3. Just about any pirate worth his ass in stolen cargo will duel any upset trader on even ground if asked. And the ones who dont, are usually hunted by other pirates too.
4. Making pirating impossible or too hard will just make the pirates go away, and then what are you left with? Traders, traders as far as the eye can see. If thats the goal then you should remove the entire ability to damage players, since in ANY game where players can attack players, players WILL attack players. Its up to the players to make sure they are properly prepared for that, and if they dont wish for it to happen, they can very easily stay in protected nation space. (Not at all a bad idea since there is so much more protected space than grey space)
EDIT: I would also like to point out that us pirates have completely brought this lifestyle into the game ourselves and have developed it. Saying that its the only "content" is a bit silly, since traders could just as easily create thier own content. Our content has been here because we choose to roleplay it there.
1. A centaur is a large cargo trade ship, while I have no problem with standing a chance against someone in a fighter ship, it should only stand a chance if you are more skillful than that fighter. If the centaur was on equal footing with the fighters there wouldnt be any point to using the fighters since the centaur has more ports, more cargo, and more armor.
2. Pirating is very very unprofitable. The only way to make money being a pirate is to make a name for yourself, that way people will pay you, or you will destroy them and thier cargo will pay you. And as it stands it is still pretty easy to run away after the last patch. Ask the pirates and traders who frequent grey space and youll see "Getting away" is still quite common and reasonably easy to do, its just no longer guarenteed.
3. Just about any pirate worth his ass in stolen cargo will duel any upset trader on even ground if asked. And the ones who dont, are usually hunted by other pirates too.
4. Making pirating impossible or too hard will just make the pirates go away, and then what are you left with? Traders, traders as far as the eye can see. If thats the goal then you should remove the entire ability to damage players, since in ANY game where players can attack players, players WILL attack players. Its up to the players to make sure they are properly prepared for that, and if they dont wish for it to happen, they can very easily stay in protected nation space. (Not at all a bad idea since there is so much more protected space than grey space)
EDIT: I would also like to point out that us pirates have completely brought this lifestyle into the game ourselves and have developed it. Saying that its the only "content" is a bit silly, since traders could just as easily create thier own content. Our content has been here because we choose to roleplay it there.
1) My point was that when people have the same skill it should be the fighter that wins. When one of the person has more skill, the person with more skill should win. It should be majorly undependent on the shiptype. As long as you use the shiptype to its full potential. But each one has their own specific potential. Don't expect for a heavy ship to contest a light ship on an agility base, but you should be able to do so with your armor and decent weapons. There will always be a reason for the usage of another ship. I suggest you fly a tradeship and try to have a fight with a vult. Tell me if even if you take on a semi - noob pirate if you can do anything but survive by trying to run away? Wouldn't it be a little bit more interesting for the pirate if in stead of being able to run away the guy actually sticks and fights? And only does so because he thinks he might stand a chance while before a tradeship like the centaur didn't stand a chance at all.
2) like I stated, you make a profit not as much as when your trading. But nothing keeps you from trading yourselve, its not as if anybody else is trying to pirate you. But my point was that the main advantage is not profit (its just a bonus), but the amount of real life skill you learn, although calling it skill is debatable. It willm however increase your experience with all kind of weapons, which will not only benefit you in pvp but also in multiple other aspects of the game. Which prooved in vendetta history the reason why you noticed a 3/1 pirate/trader amount. This however decreased drastically at the moment when running was easy. But seeing as running is a lot harder to do, I wanted to make sure that the heavy tradingships got some way of defending themselves. (I didn't make any remarks about an atlas or wraith now did I...) So softy I have never contested my own points, maybe they were badly phrased or you took them out their context, I don't know. But as a remark profit does not only mean money, it can also mean skill, ... And I think that that is where you got confused.
3) does that get me my cargo back? Since if I can easully win from the pirate in his own ship, but didn't stand a chance in this tradeship. Didn't I have more skill (Id call it luck, but thats just me), and shouldn't I have been able to win in my tradeship, maybe though with a small margin? Like I said, give the heavy tradeships actually a chance in fighting back. A prometheus has none, and when I state that I want to beef that one up then everybody agrees, if I however say the same about the centaur then I hear a distinctive no. And still a centaur is less agile, has less armor has a bit more cu. And my point was that if you want to keep it as a target to drastically increase its cu. Otherwise to make it a smaller knockoff of the prom. Although I would prefer to make it a big target, adjust the missions. And maybe add a general promlike ship that serves to my needs (but is still inferior to the serco prom, but however a close match just as the svg cult is a close match for the valk).
4) Pirating should never be easy. Since if you make it to easy then it will only affect the community, and youll see the same chaotical things as which happened during the 3.2 era whereas everybody stopped trading and the economy halted. Don't forget no traders --> no pirates. But with the state of the heavy ships at the moment I don't see a profit for the traders once people notice the easyness to kill off a centaur. The only reason why traders still have more profit is because there are very little people actually playing the game(chance of encountering a pirate in one of the 11000 sectors is minimal). Convert the amount of people back to the 22 sector universe, and my point would have been proven. This universe was actually created to have 100-reds (amybe even thousands) of people flying around not 50thy or so. And my point about the heavy ships was because of this.
And this content has been created by the traders tramshed, its called anti piracy and escorts. But at the moment, the ships itself don't have enough bulk transport to cover the expenses of an escort. And I advocated to wait with escorts untill a ship is out with supreme cargopotential which does not get contested in that part by an agile, well defendable, decently hulled, smaller and with a supreme cargocapacity. So my point was that you should create a ship with 100 - 150 cu, practically no defenses for except a minethrower (reason why i left the one large slot in), and which then needed an escort to survive in grey space. At least that would give a reason to make a ship impossible to fend threads of for itself.
Once more the only and soul reason why this 'content' is here is since its fun to see people get their ships blown up (especially for fps - player types). And because it breaks the monotoneous tendency of the game otherwise. Although in the past there sure was no need for piracy since we used wars to get rid of our money or to break the monotoneousness. We pirated people that wanted to be pirated (gave their consent)"mostly when both had sufficient money to mock around with", we left people alone that wanted to be left alone. And we had duels to see 1vs1 fights and to learn. The only role that pirating fits in with is the one of the 'censored' willing to spoil someone elses fun. And I can agree that it is in(since it's part of real life), but it should not be as easy as it is now. (well to take on heavy tradeships that is, smaller ships will probably be balanced).
cheers
PS: I hope this clarified my exact point, if you have some more questions, please raise them and ill try to clarify them into a more well formed point.
PPS: No softy what I want are these:
General Prom available to eveybody
Armor : 20000/18000
Mass : 10000kg (= proms current ?)
Cargo : 54cu
2 Small 1 Large Ports
Thrust 220
Cruise : 50m/s
Spin Torque 6.5
Max Speed 190
Drain 50s
Dont quote me on the numbers, since I don't recall the proms ones.
Centaur remake:
Armor : 25000/25000
Mass : 15000kg (= centaurs current ?)
Cargo : 120cu
1 Large Ports
Thrust 240 (if acceleration, make this low)
Cruise : 40m/s
Spin Torque 5.5
Max Speed 160
Drain 45s
I just want plus minus the same agility as a current centaur, but then with supreme cargocapacity, not coming close to the cargocapacity of the marauder.
2) like I stated, you make a profit not as much as when your trading. But nothing keeps you from trading yourselve, its not as if anybody else is trying to pirate you. But my point was that the main advantage is not profit (its just a bonus), but the amount of real life skill you learn, although calling it skill is debatable. It willm however increase your experience with all kind of weapons, which will not only benefit you in pvp but also in multiple other aspects of the game. Which prooved in vendetta history the reason why you noticed a 3/1 pirate/trader amount. This however decreased drastically at the moment when running was easy. But seeing as running is a lot harder to do, I wanted to make sure that the heavy tradingships got some way of defending themselves. (I didn't make any remarks about an atlas or wraith now did I...) So softy I have never contested my own points, maybe they were badly phrased or you took them out their context, I don't know. But as a remark profit does not only mean money, it can also mean skill, ... And I think that that is where you got confused.
3) does that get me my cargo back? Since if I can easully win from the pirate in his own ship, but didn't stand a chance in this tradeship. Didn't I have more skill (Id call it luck, but thats just me), and shouldn't I have been able to win in my tradeship, maybe though with a small margin? Like I said, give the heavy tradeships actually a chance in fighting back. A prometheus has none, and when I state that I want to beef that one up then everybody agrees, if I however say the same about the centaur then I hear a distinctive no. And still a centaur is less agile, has less armor has a bit more cu. And my point was that if you want to keep it as a target to drastically increase its cu. Otherwise to make it a smaller knockoff of the prom. Although I would prefer to make it a big target, adjust the missions. And maybe add a general promlike ship that serves to my needs (but is still inferior to the serco prom, but however a close match just as the svg cult is a close match for the valk).
4) Pirating should never be easy. Since if you make it to easy then it will only affect the community, and youll see the same chaotical things as which happened during the 3.2 era whereas everybody stopped trading and the economy halted. Don't forget no traders --> no pirates. But with the state of the heavy ships at the moment I don't see a profit for the traders once people notice the easyness to kill off a centaur. The only reason why traders still have more profit is because there are very little people actually playing the game(chance of encountering a pirate in one of the 11000 sectors is minimal). Convert the amount of people back to the 22 sector universe, and my point would have been proven. This universe was actually created to have 100-reds (amybe even thousands) of people flying around not 50thy or so. And my point about the heavy ships was because of this.
And this content has been created by the traders tramshed, its called anti piracy and escorts. But at the moment, the ships itself don't have enough bulk transport to cover the expenses of an escort. And I advocated to wait with escorts untill a ship is out with supreme cargopotential which does not get contested in that part by an agile, well defendable, decently hulled, smaller and with a supreme cargocapacity. So my point was that you should create a ship with 100 - 150 cu, practically no defenses for except a minethrower (reason why i left the one large slot in), and which then needed an escort to survive in grey space. At least that would give a reason to make a ship impossible to fend threads of for itself.
Once more the only and soul reason why this 'content' is here is since its fun to see people get their ships blown up (especially for fps - player types). And because it breaks the monotoneous tendency of the game otherwise. Although in the past there sure was no need for piracy since we used wars to get rid of our money or to break the monotoneousness. We pirated people that wanted to be pirated (gave their consent)"mostly when both had sufficient money to mock around with", we left people alone that wanted to be left alone. And we had duels to see 1vs1 fights and to learn. The only role that pirating fits in with is the one of the 'censored' willing to spoil someone elses fun. And I can agree that it is in(since it's part of real life), but it should not be as easy as it is now. (well to take on heavy tradeships that is, smaller ships will probably be balanced).
cheers
PS: I hope this clarified my exact point, if you have some more questions, please raise them and ill try to clarify them into a more well formed point.
PPS: No softy what I want are these:
General Prom available to eveybody
Armor : 20000/18000
Mass : 10000kg (= proms current ?)
Cargo : 54cu
2 Small 1 Large Ports
Thrust 220
Cruise : 50m/s
Spin Torque 6.5
Max Speed 190
Drain 50s
Dont quote me on the numbers, since I don't recall the proms ones.
Centaur remake:
Armor : 25000/25000
Mass : 15000kg (= centaurs current ?)
Cargo : 120cu
1 Large Ports
Thrust 240 (if acceleration, make this low)
Cruise : 40m/s
Spin Torque 5.5
Max Speed 160
Drain 45s
I just want plus minus the same agility as a current centaur, but then with supreme cargocapacity, not coming close to the cargocapacity of the marauder.