Forums » Suggestions

Changing "Nearby Ships" ("u") to only display those in radar range.

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Feb 02, 2009 SuperMegaMynt link
People already have a hard enough time congregating and finding each other.

If people want to find each other, it's as easy as naming coordinates. In fact, doing so is already such a common practice that the coordinates "B-8" specifically indicates the system Sedina. It's not a coincidence that they do so to cure their boredom; whenever there's pressure for players to find one another, they do. It is not a challenge. Even if this game had absolutely no sector list, players could still find each other through communication. In such a situation, I guarantee they would. In any case, grouping allows infinite radar range.

What this system would do is give players the choice to reveal themselves, or not. Without this system, players are forced to check the sector list frequently, as not doing so puts one at a potentially fatal disadvantage. Because the infinite range sector list is immersion breaking, it presents players with a choice of power gaming, or losing. That is at once a pro and a con.

The more invisible ships are to one another, the easier it will be to slip past people. The more invisible ships are to one another, the more momentum one can attain before being noticed. Because ships utilize acceleration, the more momentum you have before you are noticed, the easier it is to escape. Think about it; traders are *always* accelerating in the optimum direction. Thus, the more invisible everyone is, the easier it will be to avoid pirates. This is both a pro and a con, as it reduces the skill needed to effectively trade in grey space, and makes the game more vanilla.

Would it be practical to determine radar detection range based on the angle of the ship being detected? If the range was based on the amount of surface presented to the ship detecting, it would have the effect that chasing someone would make you less detectable. Ships like the Vulture and possibly the Hornet would become ideal interdictors. Juking someone would be difficult, as turning would increase your detectability. It meshes nicely with the idea that being occluded by an asteroid would hide your ship. (as you'd be presenting 0 surface area) In certain situations, one could see without being seen. This advantage would be mostly pointless if nearby ships were displayed at beyond radar range.
Feb 02, 2009 stackman122 link
To sum up what I like and don't:

Likes-

~Variable radar range depending on various sectors or various ship designs. (possibly a hog with extended range but only 2 sml ports)

~No 'magic' sector list that includes faction and distance. Though I would like to see ppl in the sector but with no information other than "hey, there is a ship out there somewhere".

~Relays from stations and cap ships on pertinent radar info. If stations reduced the NFZ this would result in a lot more station conflicts/kills (if that is something you want to instigate).

Dislikes-

~Few/none, that I can even think of right now.

Suggested addition- I am aware that this would be complicated to implement, but I like the idea of being able to 'power down' and hide behind a roid to limit radar visibility to 500m/zero. 'Powering up' would require some time (5 secs) and every thing would be returned to normal.
Feb 02, 2009 Phaserlight link
Wow, this has been an entertaining read.

I'd like to add to LeberMac's plea for Radar Occlusion... this would be a far more dynamic change to game mechanics imo.

As far as getting rid of the sensor log, I'm all for it. I don't think sensor range needs to be extended, either. If you can accept that the average speed for ships/weaponry is 200 m/s, at 5k this gives a pilot roughly 25s to react to a threat, which sounds about right. Not all of us were born fighter pilots with split-second reaction times, but more than 25s is getting into the languid zone.

Something that has not yet been mentioned is the fade-in fade-out effect on our sensors. When the sensor range was increased to 5k, some field resolution was lost. Alpha pilots should know what I mean when I say that having shorter sensors was more useful in dogfights. Increasing the range to 8k would make the sensors appear even more flat. For this reason I also think having different ranges for different ship types would make the sensors look confusing.

I'd like to bring in stations to this discussion. It's reasonable to assume stations have their own sensors, with different ranges or abilities than ship sensors. Nobody is going to attack you when you are docked with a station anyway, so why not have better sensors when docked with a station? This is one location where I could see having an extended sensor log.
Feb 03, 2009 Aramarth link
I've wanted the sector list to work 'better' for quite some time now. But I'm not certain the suggestions herein are what I was looking for.

All that really needs to happen as far as the radar is:
1) not in range = not in list for storm/fog sectors;
2) beyond 5k in a clear sector shows radar "hits" but NOT the players' names or ship types. As far as r/l radar, you reach a point where you can tell there is SOMETHING out there, but not what. Your computer can't figure out quite what you're seeing, due to filtering out clouds, birds, trains, space junk, or whatever. The return is just not clear enough. If the sector list simply showed >5k stuff as unidentified contacts, this would be achieved.
3) contacts block other contacts. If I am behind an asteroid or capship (especially a station), no radar signal from your ship is going to show you where I am. I should not be on your sector list, or able to be targeted with the next/previous keys. To a lesser extent, moths could also conceal one or two small fighters.
Feb 04, 2009 Spider link
Skimmed this and read a few nice suggestions, but still didn't see much about PvE, as in robots and the hive.

As the navigation map gives no real clue on what robots are in an area (they mention them equally, even if there are only two of a kind there) the "easy" way of finding your "target" hive is to bounce to a few sectors and find one where the ones you're after are in tighter concentrations.

This change would make that part of the game a lot more tedious (bear in mind that sometimes you can warp in a fair bit out of range to even the closest ones, and some sectors are very very sparesly populated)

This wouldn't hit the oldtimers much, we all have our favourite spots and we basically know the concentration of hive in places.

It might quite well hit the Queen hunters some, as they can end up _very_ far out into space and far beyond radar range. And you generally do not expect a hive hunter to head into random directions of space just to find their targets. (or to (ab)use other game mechanics like disabling dust&backgrounds to locate them by the slight flares)

So, How would this work out for a person who doesn't already know that the TyCorps are more common in certain sectors than others, or that the transport they are after will be in the outer path of the sector outside their radar range?

I don't know, but it is something to be taken into consideration before making this aspect of the game even more opaque than it is.
Feb 04, 2009 Roda Slane link
Passive sensor:
This sensor would automatically detect distance and direction of specific events, like energy weapons fire. It would also detect turbo usage and even tell you what ship type is using the turbo. It would be relatively immune to obstacles like roids or other ships.

Active sensors:
Active sensors have a more limited range, but give you more concrete information. A ship is hiding behind the roid, but the ships material doesn't match the roid, and the active sensor sees right through the ruse. Using an active sensor lets you see very clearly. It also makes you a very bright dot on every passive sensor. It also tends to flood out your own passive sensor.

Query Sensor:
Knowing who is friend and foe is important, and the fastest way to find out is to ask. This is so standard that it is automated. Turn on the query sensor and every ship will be asked who it is. Of course, no ship is going to answer if they do not who is asking, so you give away your own ident in the process.

edit: example: Roda is in sector, stationary, passive sensors, watching bots from a distance. Chi jumps into sector. The jump registered on all passive sensors within range x(p). Chi's ship uses active radar (default on jump) to check range x(a). If it had found any ship it would have done a query. Chi switches to passive sensors, and the distant bots that witnessed the jumpin now have lost the signal and turn back. Roda saw the jumpin, and avoiding turbo, moves in that direction at normal combat speed. Roda losses the signal as Chi switches to passive, but guesses she will move into the roids to snipe bots. Every time Chi opens up an a bot, her active radar turns on for the duration of her weapons fire, so Roda keeps getting a fix on her, but has to be careful not to be too close when she smacks a bot. Timing it just right, he rushes up on her at combat speed as she lines up a bot, and when her active radar goes online and spots him, he hits the turbo to close the distance...
Feb 04, 2009 smittens link
I guess this is a good change Inc. I like a lot of Lecter's ideas. To the people that complain his suggestions make it too easy for the pirate, and don't really help the trader... so what? Trading in nation space (especially around capitals) is way easier for the trader, but pirates aren't complaining about that. Grey is supposed to be the best place for pirates to do their thing, it doesn't have to be fair for traders!

Also a suggestion mentioned at the beginning but then mostly skipped over... different radar dot sizes for different ships. I really like this idea, as it makes an interceptor a lot more of an interceptor, even while the ship speeds are still so similar. A tiny dot on the radar would be virtually impossible to see, even at the longer distances (3000-5000) that Lecter dislikes so much. Closer, when it's not so faded, it would be easy to see and deal with.
Feb 05, 2009 Apex link
I like the idea of having ships outside of radar range show as "Unknown"

I don't think it's necessary to keep people blind to what's goin on in the sector, but the sense of danger might even be increased if the objects detected are unidentifiable.

One important note though, just for gameplay purposes, there should still be a distinction between players and NPCs. e.g. *Unknown, and Unknown
Feb 08, 2009 Person link
Keep it the way it is! It doesn't really give away anything, only allows you to know who's around and give them a friendly hello.
Feb 09, 2009 Kierky link
"Person", still brings up a few issues..

I'm all for naming them "*unknown/unknown" (NPC/Player) if they are out of range.
Feb 10, 2009 Ghost link
I admittedly skipped a few pages due to a lack of time, but hopefully this hasn't been mentioned yet.

Have a radar range where people show up as contacts but are untargetable (like now). Then have a greater range where targets are not visible at all.

I would hesitate to make people too difficult to find right now. I really like the implications that the original suggestion has, allowing more for more ambushes and surprise attacks, but with the amount of players right now I think it might be a bad move. PvP could become like two blind/deaf people trying to run into each other (it's already too close to that IMHO =P) Maybe sometime SOON in the future when VO has a larger playerbase this would be a more feasible suggestion. But right now I think it might hurt things more than help.
Feb 11, 2009 oddjobbob link
I am joining this thread a bit late, but I've tried to read the posts and get up to speed on this subject. As I've pointed out elsewhere I'm no genius, so I apologize if the following obnoxious screed is over long, or sounds ill informed.

Allowing Intra-Sector jumps would be a great improvement. I set my gamepad down and didn't see the throttle was bumped by a book on my desk. When I got back with my coffee I was some tens of thousands of meters away from the station where I was going. At the time I was too green to know all I had to do was jump to another sector. Then return to the sector I was in and fly to the station. It took me 20 minutes to fly to the station.

There should be no controversy between my need to know what is in the vicinity of my in-sector jump-to-point so as to prevent my jumping into another ship's cargo-bay, socialists needs to see who is around them so they can have their parties, and pirates needs to be able to sneak up on someone. Ooops, sorry, "no controversy" doesn't exist anywhere in VO. If i am jumping 10K away in-sector, the jump screen should just say, yea, or nay. Or better, I set the coords for where I want to jump in one screen. Close the screen, hit enter. If the coords are clear I jump. If they aren't, a message appears, "Re-Plot Jump Coordinates". It shouldn't give me any idea what the problem is. This has to be jiggered carefully otherwise I can select a dozen or so points all very close to each other and I can get a sense of whether the obstruction is ship or stone. On the other hand, maybe thats ok. I'm using an acquired skill to make judgements. I might jump into the presence of a friend or a foe. If the use of a screen that has to be opened and then closed is used I will have a hard time using this technique to jump away from someone shooting at me.

Another technique that could be implemented to prevent the cowards jump is that in a fight as i am getting hit my health is being consumed. There maybe should be a way that using my turbo energy I can restore my ships health. But that should drain my turbo fast so that once i go below the 25% I can't jump at all. This might mean we need two types of health, hull integrity and shield strength. Turbo energy can only recharge the latter.

Something I think that is forgotten by many players who have been in-game for a while is what it is like to be a new-guy in this game. In fact, if you have been in VO for more than a couple years I can tell you, you have no idea what it is like to be brand new. This is not to say that, as a new guy (both to VO and the multi-player, online, realtime game genre), I would like to see the game dumbed down to my level for everyone in the game.

My presupposition are this:

No one, at any level, should be able to travel through any part of the VO-verse with impunity and/or no fear whatsoever of being killed. Even if I am a 0-0-0-0-0 new-guy (this is not far off my current standing) and I am flying one sector from my nation's training sector I should still have the possibility of being killed by a cunning pirate who has beaten my nation's defenses, or a rogue member of my nation, if, I am not proceeding with at least a little caution. And my safety in such a situation, at such a level of standing, should not be dependent on my nation's forces in that sector alone.

That being said, the brand new player's position of vulnerability should be considered in any discussion of how a "Nearby Ship" alert system should work.

Pirates in this thread will disagree, no doubt, but, the new player should have a warning system that lets them know of danger long before the player with any 5s in their levels, maybe even 3s. The reason for this is simple. New players should be cautious, but I will tell you this as a new-guy, there is A LOT in the VO HUD/interface to figure out without also worrying if you're going to get killed going one-sector from your nation's training station sector. This is true even if in your first days in VO you decide to wander about into the deepest levels of Gery Space.

Yeah, yeah I know Dr. L, why should the new player have such an advantage? Well, I would posit that the brand new player has no advantage, and high-level players who find some joy in destroying such a new player should have to really, really work at it. Even if it means letting new players "emergency-jump" simply by hittinga double tap on any key on their keyboard. Also, while an influx of new players wouldn't solve all of VO's problems, or make VO a better game simply because there are more people, few people would disagree that more is better when it comes to player count. If you want to increase the VO player population you have to make the opening hours of the game easy enough, and safe enough that they don't get discouraged and go away without getting a good taste of the dish VO offers. I would suggest that this new-player early warning system should extend not only to drastically reduced jump distances, but even to include the sector into which a new-player intends to jump. Who cares if a pirate doesn't get to kill a player with 5 hours into the game, or even 5 days? Only the pirate. Conversely, who cares if a pirate kills a new-player with 5 hours/days into the game? Well, the new-player for one. And I would rather the new-guy be happy. His "buy-in" is still low. If he thinks he "got away" he will be elated and his adrenaline will run for hours. At that point his "buy-in" will be close to set. The pirate's buy-in should be already firmly esconced, and if losing a new-guy to an emergency-jump will make you go away, Dr.L, well, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Where is the sport, after all, in hanging around a wormhole just to blast the first ship that happens through. The player who does that is probably of the same ilk as the bow-hunter who stands on a tree platform overlooking a salt-lick waiting for the first deer to come walking by. (For those of you not born in a hunter/hunted environment that is an actual tactic of bow hunters, but it is illegal for hunters with rifles. That was the law in Washington State, anyway, when I hunted as a kid.)

This early warning system would go away once a combination of a player's combat, small weapons, large weapons levels have reached a total of 3 (this would be me, right now), or 4, or 5, or some reasonable number. While you have an early warning system your access to chat would be restricted to a channel open only to new-players and trustworthy mentors of a certain reasonable level. In this way experienced players couldn't ghost as new players and warn their experienced buddies about the location of other ships.

Yeah, yeah, I know Dr.L...the idea sucks...its stupid, whatever...But you said yourself..."Having the most effective defense in the game be equally useful all across the playing terrain is fundamentally game breaking."

For this new-guy's perspective, changing the radar system to help me find someone would be a great improvement. One very helpful soul saw me having nothing but problems trying to figure out how to mine. He was good enough to show me another sector that had better astroids. Even gave me some better equipment. But when I left the station after selling my first load of mined ore I could not find him for all the green BotDots on my radar, even though he was only a couple hundred meters from me. Misanthropes like some of the pro-pirates in this thread will find it hard to believe but many players look at this game as a highly entertaining social networking platform. The player who helped me with the mining stuff is someone I would like to get to know, I think. I mean, he went way out of his way to help me.

I like LeberMac's idea of radar occlusion, too. If hiding means anything then it means hiding right out in the open, so to speak. But if you're hiding behind an astroid, that astroids ability to hide you decreases as I get further from it as my radar beam will bend around the roid, and for the same reason it decreases as you stray away from the roid. As I get closer to the roid you become more hidden as the roid will tend to "fan" my radar.

Aloha,
ojb
Feb 11, 2009 Dr. Lecter link
That post is so ignorant of the basics of the game (and I don't mean how it is now, but how the Devs have articulated VO will be) that I needn't reply at all. Good job, BJB.
Feb 28, 2009 SuperMegaMynt link
There are several threads kicking around the notion of powering up/down weapons, in relation to the FF restriction removal, stealth, and other hot topics. I've taken the liberty of resurrecting some of my favorites, with the obligatory creative gesture more appropriate than shameless bumping. Essentially, the basic suggestions are that while traveling through a lawful sector, keeping your weapons "offline" would be essential to appease the local jurisdiction, and that likewise, activating a cloaking device, or similar stealth device might demand a similar power down.

It is elegant, this way these two ideas coalesce. I'll go a step farther, and say that total powergrid of your active weapons factor in the range at which your ship can be detected. I would suggest that inverse exponents make an appearance here, something along the lines of half the square root of the ship's used power grid, plus the square root of the ship's length for the range in kilometers. Detection Range = (sqrt(PG)+sqrt(Length))/2km. So, a Behemoth somehow using all 20 would be detectable at about 5,000m, the current average. A Valkyrie, a fairly medium sized ship with full grid usage would register at around 4,000m. Intercepty like fighters with basic weaponry, such as the Vulture, would be noticeable at the reduced range of about 3,000m. Ships with absolutely no weapons active would be able to be targeted only at about 1500-2500m, still outside any weapon range, but close enough to make a jump on someone before they can reach the safety of warp capable space.
Apr 16, 2009 Lonectzn link
I apologise ahead of time to anyone who doesn't like me bringing back a two month old thread =). I've been doing some searches on this, it appears to be part of a range of very similar ideas that have been discussed for several years. This and some similar discussions were among the first things that hit me while playing.

I am strongly for the sector list only showing those on radar and group members, except when in monitored space (where it would show all).

I would go further than the suggestions of powering down and sitting on roids, to saying that all in-built sensors are passive and simply going behind a large body (roid/station/etc) should be enough to remove you from radar and break active target locks. This opens up a whole new world of tactics - in a dogfight one ship heads behind a roid, breaking the pursuer's lock, the pursuer follows but the runner changed direction! They came over the top in the confusion and end up right on the pursuer. Or a pirate sits invisible behind a roid in a storm, jumping out to gank but finding somewhat more than he bargained for (he was just as blind as them, maybe he should have had a friend with radar extenders scouting) This kind of information warfare is my favourite type of combat, something VO lacks. You can extend this further - active sensor equipment with slot use and energy requirements (creating real scoutships).

Those are probably the biggest things on my wishlist. Radar/visual occlusion I imagine would have some unique client-side problems (like a missile or ship following an enemy that the client no longer knows about). I still think this would go a long way to adding more depth to combat, and especially stronger role-based fitting focused on teamwork.
Apr 16, 2009 Aticephyr link
I would go further than the suggestions of powering down and sitting on roids, to saying that all in-built sensors are passive and simply going behind a large body (roid/station/etc) should be enough to remove you from radar and break active target locks. This opens up a whole new world of tactics - in a dogfight one ship heads behind a roid, breaking the pursuer's lock, the pursuer follows but the runner changed direction! They came over the top in the confusion and end up right on the pursuer. Or a pirate sits invisible behind a roid in a storm, jumping out to gank but finding somewhat more than he bargained for (he was just as blind as them, maybe he should have had a friend with radar extenders scouting) This kind of information warfare is my favourite type of combat, something VO lacks. You can extend this further - active sensor equipment with slot use and energy requirements (creating real scoutships).

I think nearly every player in VO would agree with you to some extent or another here.

Some threads(/posts) you might find useful (in date order):
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/2489#257973
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/14519?page=2#187721
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/20212#254057

I'm sure those are just a few, but those are the only ones I know about.
EDIT: doing a search for "occlusion" might also reveal some fun threads.