@biretak

See the post about you that you are answering, as an answer to your latest post. If you understand what I just wrote then you'll understand why your answers are not helpful. If not, then just stop trying to answer since you can't.

@greenwall

I don't know how you could interpret HepFree's post disagreeing with you as agreement unless you are choosing to ignore the bulk of it.

Harpo, TGFT's station keying policies are publicly available on our website. My narrow interpretation of "friendly to TGFT" didn't go over well with members. Although I still think it isn't very friendly to not help your friends, I respect their broader interpretation which pretty much is anyone who doesn't shoot at us.

Harpo, Hep and I both agree that there is a difference between a public plugin that steals info from you, and a guild-only plugin that steals from you. I.e. publicly doing it is worse. We don't agree on other points, but we agree on that much at least.

Just because AnyX was only available to a smaller group doesn't excuse the fact that it stole info from it's members without their knowing. At least -- that's how it was when I was using it. Perhaps ITAN added disclosures to their AnyX plugin like Lisa did to hers?

@biretak: I'll let you have the last tangential word on the topic. I give up.

lol, Harpo, I don't see what wasn't addressed or I missed it somewhere.

I have hidden a secret message in one of my posts in this thread via enboldened letters. First person to find it and post the answer will be rewarded 1 million credits in game.

For those who find this thread tl;dr I'll summarize for you.

Alts + neutrality + nationality = 9 pages of lols

@greenwall

When I log into the anyx web interface I can see everything it knows about me. It's quite useful, but could be better. One thing it doesn't know about me are the alts I have that I've never used anyx with. As HepFree pointed out, one has to log into anyx after logging into a character, it's not automatic. I have not used the TGFT plugin in question, does it also force one to login after getting on a character, or does one configure it once and it works whenever you use VO?

I see a lot of talk about the mota incident. I'm not kb, of course I can't also be called level headed, but at any rate here is another council member chiming in.
TGFT is a guild that fosters individuality, even at the council level. We have no specific rules that I saw being violated, nor have i or any other council member that i'm aware of been approached in game by mota's at the time guild about the matter.
My conclusion was this, mota was expelled by his guild for guild reasons. If there was an issue certainly the council would be approached and as a very active player and council member there was plenty of opportunity yet it didn't happen.
kbireta knows I don't always agree with him or his style, I've said it directly, and i did not see eye to eye on this matter either, however as a council member of TGFT:
A: i respect another pilot's choice to play their own rp
B: generally don't believe in council business being aired in public. thats part of the point of council imo, to handle guild business internally. that being said, even if at some point we the council DID ever discipline someone it likely would not be made public.

"I have not used the TGFT plugin in question, does it also force one to login after getting on a character, or does one configure it once and it works whenever you use VO?"

It doesn't need to be logged into or configured, it has no built-in means to be used on a per-character basis, and the information is transmitted completely automatically. The only user action it requires is to be installed. If you only want to use it on one character and not on the others, you have to either remove the plugin before playing as those characters, or you have to modify the plugin by hand to add code that will limit which characters it functions for.

That ease of use is one of the reasons people were upset about it -- people who don't know much about how plugins actually work might not even have realized it was communicating with another server and revealing information that could easily be used to identify their alts. The public description also didn't make clear that in addition to spying on them, it was also reporting on every single person they encountered (not just pirates either; everybody).

The description has been updated, and that's a good thing. TGFT is no longer distributing the plugin in an unethical manner.

Of course, actually using TGFT Utilities is still pretty unethical. It's equivalent to posting my every movement on the VPR channel, so nobody who is a TGFT Utilities user should be surprised when those of us who dislike such behavior kill them.

("But Rin!" you might say, "You're a pirate! Of course they're reporting you!" Sure, and I expect that. But they're not just reporting me; they're reporting you as well. Everybody they see. And that is wrong. You should be as offended as I am; perhaps even more so since you (as a hypothetically innocent person) have no cause to expect that kind of behavior! Why should Lisa know about every time you hop into the same sector some random player using TGFT Utilities? It's none of her business! Get mad! Kill! Rip and rend! Grr!)

Rin, TGFT Utilities does not auto-post locations. You have to manually issue a search anytime you want to know about a location. In other words, it doesn't provide instantaneous notification of locations. From a situational-awareness perspective, this is less dangerous than you (and others) are making it seem (posting locations to VPR channel).

It is an enormous pain in the ass to be constantly checking TCFT Utilities for updates -- so most people would use it for a general snapshot of the state of the observed universe. Obviously opponents don't want either type of information available to their enemies, but if I may say so, you of all people should appreciate the need to be accurate in your characterizations of things.

Rin, TGFT Utilities does not auto-post locations. You have to manually issue a search anytime you want to know about a location. In other words, it doesn't provide instantaneous notification of locations. From a situational-awareness perspective, this is less dangerous than you (and others) are making it seem (posting locations to VPR channel).

Every single time you see another player, irrespective of guild or nation or any other factor, their location and other data is uploaded to the TGFT server. Once that has been done, TGFT can use this info in any way they wish. I am confident TGFT have a plugin or other means to retrieve this information in real time. The only thing they restrict is what data comes back to the user of TGFT utils. Which is the command they provide for a location lookup. Looking through the code is what tells me this.

This is not about the user of TGFT utilities, as much as it is about TGFT receiving instant reports of locations.

I think you are not well enough rehearsed with Servers and Plugin interaction to comment on the matter anyway.
To quote... you, on the PCC - Lua forum: "lua illiterate here -- why am I posting here?"

Speaking of that thread...I really think we could benefit from some added trident functions in the VO API!!! Let's try to make that happen.

@brietk: Thank you for that concession, but unfortunately your word doesn't mean as much as it used to. I'll wait to hear from other TGFT council, although make no mistake: I sincerely appreciate it if you do indeed recognize what was wrong with your actions

@Harpo: Me, the voice of sanity?? Something is wrong here...

@HepFree: Thanks for chiming in with basic logic, it's apparently in short supply :)

@Darth: Nice try :P your very sensible notion is not welcome here!!

@greenwall: You don't get to say "I agree with HepFree" when you're only agreeing on the first 5% of what he said... and then the rest of what he said is explicit logic about why you're wrong. The key point being; Itan members were never automatically spied on; you had to click "LOGIN" on every character you wanted to use the plugin with. If you have a problem with that, then I think you need to be taking the strongest stance of anyone against tgft-util, as that is a FAR more invasive and sneaky than what anyx did

@sirfropsalot: Thank you very very much for finally chiming in. I completely understand that some things should be handled in-house; however in this case that isn't really an option. Based on this:

"My conclusion was this, mota was expelled by his guild for guild reasons."

It sounds like you don't have the full picture:

1. Mota was expelled because biretek threatened to put his whole guild on TGFT's KoS if they didn't kick him out
2. This altercation started after biretek refused to key Mota unless Mota stopped what he was doing (trying to neutrally use the station) and helped biretek bomb the turrets (ie, become NOT neutral)
3. To clarify; biretek threatened to add a whole guild to TGFT KoS, something many of us thought was only possible by TGFT group decision

Both of these actions individually are rather embarrassing for a TGFT councilor, and together they paint the picture of someone who should not be representing your guild. UNLESS of course, you do want your guild to be known for bullying smaller guilds & threatening them with KoS if they don't follow your bidding. If that's the case, please correct me and ignore the rest

These events have been explained and corroborated by both mota and kb. In reaction to the very questionable behavior, joylessjoker posted another thread asking for comment by TGFT council. Because by many interpretations, (1) above is in violation of the TGFT charter.

However, instead of getting an actual comment about whether or not that was the case, all we got was more point-missing logic-less defending from kb, and Surb chiming in with (somehow) even MORE immature and misguided responses in many fruitless attempts to kill discussion. What joyless, Harpo, and I have been BEGGING for since the incident is comment from TGFT higher ups about:

- Does this violate your charter?
- If so, what will be the repercussions for kb?
- If not, why not? Should other small guilds be wary of individual TGFT council threatening them with KoS (without the rest of the council's input) if they don't follow orders?

Regarding: "there was plenty of opportunity yet it didn't happen. "

I'm not sure how much it was discussed (or not) ingame, though from what I've seen from IRC there isn't much room for anything but kb vs. SKV flamewars. However, on the forums it has certainly been discussed, and had a whole thread started to discuss it. Surb even joined in the thread, but only to do his best attempt at a Lecter diversion.

In conclusion: yes there are plenty of issues that should be discussed in-house. However, when the issue is one of your councilors publicly behaving like a giant ninny: possibly breaching your charter, bullying neutral parties to become non-neutral, threatening guilds with KoS if they don't kick out someone he dislikes... then it starts to reflect on TGFT as a whole.

And while you don't have to answer it, not chiming in (or responding in the immature & misguided capacity that Surb has) makes you ALL look complicit and accepting of kb's actions.

If that is NOT the case, and he did in fact breach the TGFT charter, or at least the less-tangible-ideals-that-TGFT-strives-for, then a public comment and discipline announcement is DESPERATELY needed to show the public that TGFT does not condone what kb did.

Because as the case is now, he behaved like an ass, and TGFT is implicitly condoning that behavior.

Does that make sense? Amidst all this other bullshit, his behavior in causing the Mota incident (and it sounds like your council isn't fully aware of the details?) is the only truly embarrassing and questionable thing to happen in recent weeks, and the only thing that truly reflects poorly on you guys from an impartial standpoint.

@kierky I would point out there is no actual confirmation that TGFT members do in fact receive instant notifications as a result of collected TGFT Utility data. That said, even if TGFT doesn't use it in this way, the door is still open to them doing so if they wanted and without the TGFT Utilities user ever being the wiser. THAT is a fair characterization.

I would point out there is no actual confirmation that TGFT members do in fact receive instant notifications as a result of collected TGFT Utility data. That said, even if TGFT doesn't use it in this way, the door is still open to them doing so if they wanted and without the TGFT Utilities user ever being the wiser. THAT is a fair characterization.

I would point out that you contradicted yourself about three times in that paragraph and it made no sense.

@smittens

You don't get to say "I agree with HepFree" when you're only agreeing on the first 5% of what he said...

Sure I do. I only care about the 5% of agreement we had. The rest was not applicable to my original argument.

At the time of TGFT utilities primary release the only difference between it and AnyX in regards to their undisclosed information stealing is that AnyX stole from a smaller userbase. Clicking "LOGIN" is ultimately no different from adding or removing a plugin from the plugins folder if the user is never told the full scope of information which is being monitored. If every user was smart enough to look at the LUA code and see what AnyX was doing internally we wouldn't be talking about this, or TGFT utilities for that matter. But the majority of users don't have those skills and instead place their unfounded trust in the developers of those plugins to not deceive them. THAT is what I am talking about: deception.

SKV and friends are arguing that TGFT utilities deceives its users in the scope of its function, and that TGFT should die because of it. I'm arguing ITAN did the same thing to the users of AnyX and SKV should, at the very least, apply the same chastisements and condemnations to ITAN that it leveled at TGFT.

The presumption initially posed by Estrian that "plugins made by guilds for guilds are clearly biased" implies that those guildmember users should somehow assume and accept they are being spied on by the plugin on any character they login with. I think that's bullshit. Only a small slice of the VO population has the ability to ascertain the meaning of LUA code, and of them an even smaller amount are aware of the kind of info LUA code can pull from a user in VO. ITAN does not require such understanding and skills for membership and thus knowingly deceives it's members when it bestows AnyX membership.

And if that wasn't enough, AnyX is not solely used by ITAN members and their alts. Or, at least it wasn't when I was in ITAN. I distinctly recall EMS Ninjr (who had no known ITAN alt) being given access, and it being discussed gleefully that he wasn't aware that he was acting as an ITAN spy unwittingly. For all I know he still has this access. So yeah, if Ninjr is on your buddy list you might consider unchecking "location".

This all just goes to show the double standard of these gasbags.

@smittens

You make some good points with the facts at hand. Under current charter kbireta did indeed skirt close to the line by threatening however any actual declarations of hostility have to be reviewed and approved for it to be binding. I understand how it seemed, but it's not that easy to get on the potentially hostile list, even when it's a council member asking.
Threatening an action is not specifically a breach.

As for not keying Mota without active help, that actually falls in line with TGFT policy at that time . In a reactionary move to the IGVT incidents the council redefined our key policy, myself as one of the principles of the move. Our members quickly made their opinions clear on the matter and we changed back to our original stances. I notified IGVT leadership of the change in key status and have never seen brzi95 in game or forum since then. So it would be hard to censure someone for upholding current policy, no matter how misguided.
it seems to me such an important issue would be discussed pilot to pilot in verse, and the rp forum is to supplement that, not be the main point of contact.

... and Surb chiming in
*ding* Here I am!

Surb even joined... attempt at a Lecter diversion.
Wooh now little doggy. Don't go saying things you can't take back now.

... that Surb has
Third mention, hmm I must have really left an impression or finally found your tender spot with rowing through this river of shit called "Role Playing". Well, I'll leave you here to add to it. Maybe leave a complaint next time it could save you some time.

EDIT: Sorry there isn't much to add but what more can you add to a river of shit but posting in SKV threads?