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SKV attacked a member of TGFT for having low Itani/High Serco standing. Which is what nationalists do.
TGFT replied with a full guild KOS (without seeking diplomatic talks with SKV).
SKV retaliated with a War Declaration.
Easy enough for your pea-sized brain to understand?
TGFT replied with a full guild KOS (without seeking diplomatic talks with SKV).
SKV retaliated with a War Declaration.
Easy enough for your pea-sized brain to understand?
My Itani standing is +600 Kierky. That's as high as I can get it.
My Itani standing is +600 Kierky. That's as high as I can get it.
That has no relevance to the conversation since you were not the member in question.
Former TGFT ~DROID~ was the member, who was Serco, sporting Itani Hate, Serco Admire.
That has no relevance to the conversation since you were not the member in question.
Former TGFT ~DROID~ was the member, who was Serco, sporting Itani Hate, Serco Admire.
@kbireta - I would suggest you re-read my story again (think it's on page 3 of this thread).
yes, but I voted the way I did because SKV started shooting me in the back. So, it is relevant.
kenny, just try to stay focused...
I am focused, they are trying to sound like SKV did not turn into a griefer guild.
yes, but I voted the way I did because SKV started shooting me in the back. So, it is relevant.
No TGFT were shot in the time between the incident and the KOS Declaration by TGFT. SKV only started attacking TGFT once the SKV-TGFT War Declaration was made on the forums.
You voted the way you did, because like all TGFT, you thought no one would notice, until someone pulls up Ecka's kilt and realise that he's wearing a g-string.
No TGFT were shot in the time between the incident and the KOS Declaration by TGFT. SKV only started attacking TGFT once the SKV-TGFT War Declaration was made on the forums.
You voted the way you did, because like all TGFT, you thought no one would notice, until someone pulls up Ecka's kilt and realise that he's wearing a g-string.
I was shot in the back before that incident, Kierky. And it wasn't only once.
TGFT's definition of griefer is essentially: anyone who doesn't agree with us, and/or shoots us.
A griefer is someone who kills another repeatedly with no RP backing, until they are so frustrated they ragelog. (This is called having intent to give another grief for no reason)
A war does no fit this definition, especially when backed by the evidence I presented in the links.
If TGFT did not want this war, they would not have make SKV KOS in the first place, and approached SKV regarding the incident diplomatically.
A griefer is someone who kills another repeatedly with no RP backing, until they are so frustrated they ragelog. (This is called having intent to give another grief for no reason)
A war does no fit this definition, especially when backed by the evidence I presented in the links.
If TGFT did not want this war, they would not have make SKV KOS in the first place, and approached SKV regarding the incident diplomatically.
Also @ Wally:
"common alt-separation standards" says Greenwall. Can somebody please link me to where these standards are spelled out. I operate under the assumptions I've already stated in one of my rare posts, which I can't find cuz I'm a forum noob. In summary though I said that if you need others to repect your alt's separation then you have already failed at alt separation and therefore others need not respect you for something you failed miserably at. Yes, I'm aware that I have like...25 alts with the same MO ;-)
"common alt-separation standards" says Greenwall. Can somebody please link me to where these standards are spelled out. I operate under the assumptions I've already stated in one of my rare posts, which I can't find cuz I'm a forum noob. In summary though I said that if you need others to repect your alt's separation then you have already failed at alt separation and therefore others need not respect you for something you failed miserably at. Yes, I'm aware that I have like...25 alts with the same MO ;-)
I do not know anything about Max Hax history before he joined SKV ranks.
Well you do now!
SKV has a long tradition of reforming the 'fallen'.
Ok, I see. So SKV lets people start with a clean slate? Is this some twisted way to recruit Sieger to SKV?
All you are saying is you have a double standard for SKV members. I.e. you don't care if they've behaved badly in the past, but you do care if other non SKV members have behaved badly in the past (or, in the case of Sieger, have been "alleged" to have behaved badly).
You can't flaunt a moral compass if you only apply it selectively and bury your head in the sand when it suits your purposes.
And kb is correct -- SKV repeatedly harrassed TGFT and TGFT responded in kind. SKV appears to think that their initial killing of TGFT unprovoked is inadmissable in the debate on how this conflict started.
Anyone who has been paying attention to this whole trainwreck of a situation should be able to see that there have been missteps on both sides (TGFT and SKV). But that doesn't change that the initial creation of this conflict rests 100% on SKV's shoulders.
@kierky -- I recall multiple occasions that I directly observed and also heard about second hand that showed SKV was targetting TGFT, especially Sieger, prior to SKV being labelled KoS by TGFT. It had nothing to do with standing.
Well you do now!
SKV has a long tradition of reforming the 'fallen'.
Ok, I see. So SKV lets people start with a clean slate? Is this some twisted way to recruit Sieger to SKV?
All you are saying is you have a double standard for SKV members. I.e. you don't care if they've behaved badly in the past, but you do care if other non SKV members have behaved badly in the past (or, in the case of Sieger, have been "alleged" to have behaved badly).
You can't flaunt a moral compass if you only apply it selectively and bury your head in the sand when it suits your purposes.
And kb is correct -- SKV repeatedly harrassed TGFT and TGFT responded in kind. SKV appears to think that their initial killing of TGFT unprovoked is inadmissable in the debate on how this conflict started.
Anyone who has been paying attention to this whole trainwreck of a situation should be able to see that there have been missteps on both sides (TGFT and SKV). But that doesn't change that the initial creation of this conflict rests 100% on SKV's shoulders.
@kierky -- I recall multiple occasions that I directly observed and also heard about second hand that showed SKV was targetting TGFT, especially Sieger, prior to SKV being labelled KoS by TGFT. It had nothing to do with standing.
SKV appears to think that their initial killing of TGFT unprovoked is inadmissable in the debate on how this conflict started.
Well it kind of is, since the killing itself is pursuant to their ultra-nationalistic nature.
Well it kind of is, since the killing itself is pursuant to their ultra-nationalistic nature.
@ Greenwall
Again I ask, what's wrong with sticking it to the bad guys? You think it's wrong to harm bad guys? Stop dodging!
Again I ask, what's wrong with sticking it to the bad guys? You think it's wrong to harm bad guys? Stop dodging!
@wes - There are different degrees of failing at alt separation. It's one thing to have your alts outed because you have been directly observed switching between them in ways that obviously conflict with relationships between your alts and other people. It's quite another thing to have your alts outed by people you once trusted for no reason other than they don't like when you play the enemy.
The standards I refer to are common sense... i.e. unwritten rules that most of us abide by.
@kierky No it isn't. Ultra-nationalistic is not an official position of SKV according to their guild description. It's an unofficial excuse to do whatever they want and call it "nationalism", even if it isn't in the slightest.
@wes again - There's nothing wrong with sticking it to the bad guys. It's the way in which you did it. Nobody who is aware of what you did will ever give you access to their bank now -- even whatever guilds you are in at the moment.
The standards I refer to are common sense... i.e. unwritten rules that most of us abide by.
@kierky No it isn't. Ultra-nationalistic is not an official position of SKV according to their guild description. It's an unofficial excuse to do whatever they want and call it "nationalism", even if it isn't in the slightest.
@wes again - There's nothing wrong with sticking it to the bad guys. It's the way in which you did it. Nobody who is aware of what you did will ever give you access to their bank now -- even whatever guilds you are in at the moment.
Kierky, ALL the KILLINGS were not based on the ROE SKV claims to have. MOST SKV killings of TGFT were against SKV ROE that SKV igores.
@Greenwall
Yes, SKV gets people to start with a clean slate. Not that Max Hack or Younger need one.
They are Itani chars with no prior history of misbehavior.
Wes as a player had his good and bad moments but his transgressions are strictly VO RP ones and nowhere near disgusting as Siegers real life ones.
Yes i am making a distinction between VO RP and real life moral and ethical character flaws.
Peddling TGFT_utils honey pot scam belongs to real life immoral and unethical actions as does Siegers buying of a vet account.
Moron is strong with kenny and he is wrong.
Since my return as commander of SKV to VO - SKV has shot 2 (two) TGFT players (not counting Sieger and his dispute with Niki since he had a SKV KOS status).
One was Ossela Ba-Reme for doing ctc for serco side and the other was Droid.
Yes, SKV gets people to start with a clean slate. Not that Max Hack or Younger need one.
They are Itani chars with no prior history of misbehavior.
Wes as a player had his good and bad moments but his transgressions are strictly VO RP ones and nowhere near disgusting as Siegers real life ones.
Yes i am making a distinction between VO RP and real life moral and ethical character flaws.
Peddling TGFT_utils honey pot scam belongs to real life immoral and unethical actions as does Siegers buying of a vet account.
Moron is strong with kenny and he is wrong.
Since my return as commander of SKV to VO - SKV has shot 2 (two) TGFT players (not counting Sieger and his dispute with Niki since he had a SKV KOS status).
One was Ossela Ba-Reme for doing ctc for serco side and the other was Droid.
Since my return as commander of SKV... I plug my ears and close my eyes and think happy thoughts
"Heh, I returned to VO with a set of values common to SKV from the time it was very active.
You know Niki as well as I do - Niki never complains, he shoots back. Niki just stated what was happening and it was my decision to put our old rule in effect - you mess with one SKV you mess with all of us."
@Bojan: Sure, but what I'm having trouble with is this concept that being shot while AFK constitutes having been messed with. My perception of SKV has always been that it's one of the more rough and tumble guilds, so for you guys to take that personally just seems strange. It's the sort of reaction I'd expect from TGFT or ONE, not SKV.
Not that there aren't plenty of other reasons for you to shoot at Sieger. :)
"The same FAMY that's been stealing from the VO population for years?"
@West: Hey now! There is no need for slander. FAMY is no more a band of cutthoats and thieves than is the United States government!
You know Niki as well as I do - Niki never complains, he shoots back. Niki just stated what was happening and it was my decision to put our old rule in effect - you mess with one SKV you mess with all of us."
@Bojan: Sure, but what I'm having trouble with is this concept that being shot while AFK constitutes having been messed with. My perception of SKV has always been that it's one of the more rough and tumble guilds, so for you guys to take that personally just seems strange. It's the sort of reaction I'd expect from TGFT or ONE, not SKV.
Not that there aren't plenty of other reasons for you to shoot at Sieger. :)
"The same FAMY that's been stealing from the VO population for years?"
@West: Hey now! There is no need for slander. FAMY is no more a band of cutthoats and thieves than is the United States government!
Greenwall; as someone who has been paying attention to this whole trainwreck of a situation purely for the drama of it all (seriously, you guys are better than television), and who has no alts in SKV nor TGFT, but has considered all concerned parties as friends (or at least friendly) when I played*... allow me to chime in with my un-solicited mostly-impartial opinion:
3. Pedaling the tgft-util plugin the way TGFT did, with so much initial denial of anything sketchy about it, was a bit underhanded... but certainly not the most scumbag thing anyone has tried in the history of VO espionage, and between the disclaimer that has been added + the stance that using the plugin will get you shot at by more people... seems resolved enough
2. I really don' see anything especially morally or ethically outrageous about someone buying an Alpha/Beta account. Especially since, until we hear from the devs one way or another (don't hold your breath..) there is nothing to confirm that Sieger's claim that he used to have one & doesn't remember the login info is false. Even yoda's story doesn't confirm or deny it. Although forgetting-then-suddenly-remembering login credentials is a bit farfetched... it's not outside the realm of possibility, and again when all you're talking about is alpha/beta badges it really doesn't seem like a big issue. Bojan, is there something I'm missing?
1. There has been exactly ONE seriously immature and douchey move perpetrated by one of the sides: beriteks antics with Mota. Which, despite many requests for comment by some of the more level-headed pilots, have still only been defended by beritek himself in a rather childish way. As usual, Harpo nails it:
'This statement just reminds me of you telling actually neutral guild members that they had to help you bomb stations to get station keys. This just irks me in combination with your tangled rhetoric of TGFT neutrality. Has the TGFT council made any statement of weather or not this is still within TGFT policy? I know you stated that you acted within TGFT rules but I'd like to hear from a different councillor if this is true or not. Has there been a policy change since this surfaced?'
If a non-beiretk TGFT were to chime in that would go a long way for me, and presumably other impartial parties, because this is the one thing that sticks out as especially weird, and the one thing that directly goes against the mission a guild has set for itself. And so far, the only response of non-kb-TGFT on the matter has been Surb's "haha why are you even talking about this you nerds?" which, in context, makes all of TGFT look complicit in the immature behavior, and wholly unconcerned with upholding their charter or sticking to their guild's supposed goal.
In light of all that, I have to believe that SKV has more-of-the-right-of-it (though I'm sure there are some inaccuracies to both sides' stories). And again, I say this as someone who comes in impartially and is just here to see how things shake out.
Until a non-kb-TGFT chimes in on the Mota matter, they objectively look to be in the wrong. And as long as their only defense is a middle-school-level attempt to change the subject and/or ignore the topic, it's not going to get better.
*it sounds like I'm the only one who liked Electricity's "bzzzrt..." RP :D oh well
3. Pedaling the tgft-util plugin the way TGFT did, with so much initial denial of anything sketchy about it, was a bit underhanded... but certainly not the most scumbag thing anyone has tried in the history of VO espionage, and between the disclaimer that has been added + the stance that using the plugin will get you shot at by more people... seems resolved enough
2. I really don' see anything especially morally or ethically outrageous about someone buying an Alpha/Beta account. Especially since, until we hear from the devs one way or another (don't hold your breath..) there is nothing to confirm that Sieger's claim that he used to have one & doesn't remember the login info is false. Even yoda's story doesn't confirm or deny it. Although forgetting-then-suddenly-remembering login credentials is a bit farfetched... it's not outside the realm of possibility, and again when all you're talking about is alpha/beta badges it really doesn't seem like a big issue. Bojan, is there something I'm missing?
1. There has been exactly ONE seriously immature and douchey move perpetrated by one of the sides: beriteks antics with Mota. Which, despite many requests for comment by some of the more level-headed pilots, have still only been defended by beritek himself in a rather childish way. As usual, Harpo nails it:
'This statement just reminds me of you telling actually neutral guild members that they had to help you bomb stations to get station keys. This just irks me in combination with your tangled rhetoric of TGFT neutrality. Has the TGFT council made any statement of weather or not this is still within TGFT policy? I know you stated that you acted within TGFT rules but I'd like to hear from a different councillor if this is true or not. Has there been a policy change since this surfaced?'
If a non-beiretk TGFT were to chime in that would go a long way for me, and presumably other impartial parties, because this is the one thing that sticks out as especially weird, and the one thing that directly goes against the mission a guild has set for itself. And so far, the only response of non-kb-TGFT on the matter has been Surb's "haha why are you even talking about this you nerds?" which, in context, makes all of TGFT look complicit in the immature behavior, and wholly unconcerned with upholding their charter or sticking to their guild's supposed goal.
In light of all that, I have to believe that SKV has more-of-the-right-of-it (though I'm sure there are some inaccuracies to both sides' stories). And again, I say this as someone who comes in impartially and is just here to see how things shake out.
Until a non-kb-TGFT chimes in on the Mota matter, they objectively look to be in the wrong. And as long as their only defense is a middle-school-level attempt to change the subject and/or ignore the topic, it's not going to get better.
*it sounds like I'm the only one who liked Electricity's "bzzzrt..." RP :D oh well