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Responses & Responsibility to Enemies

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Feb 18, 2004 Magus link
Something you all seem to miss in all your pontificating. World War II analogies do not apply here. In a war, war itself is the justification for things like ganging up. You're fighting for something greater than petty pride. When a pirate picks on and kills a n00b, he isn't fighting for any cause. He's doing it for pride and pride alone. There is, however, no reason to be prideful in killing a n00b. Nor is there reason to be prideful by resorting to cheap tactics, nor is there cause for pride in outnumbering. You won, but so what, you haven't proved anything. And since you are not at war, you are not furthering any agenda.
During a CTF attempt, nobody complains about rocket ramming, outnumbering, or killing whoever gets in the way because the act of capping is justification on its own. But if you happen to be taking a stroll down central park and get mugged by some jackass with a gun, you have every right to be angry.
Feb 18, 2004 Durgia link
what will solve a lot of this is factions with ff turned back on.

Then you may be at war with a faction...or allied. If you attack a member of the faction...guess what all the allies will be on you. This will allow traders to more or less go free inside the factions territory(obviously after multiple sectors are introduced on a large scale)

So as the game is now...its a test so play it or not I guess. As it will be, I think it will be a great RPG and MMORPG.

Most things in this game that seem unbalanced atm are that way because all the balancing agents have not yet been introduced, including players and the space war that is always about.
Feb 18, 2004 SirCamps link
OK, I thought I'd ruffle a few feathers here. Apparently this is something that is outside of a person's comfort zone. I'll reply to y'alls posts:

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What about other people's fun? Or are you more important than everyone else? Why do you consider blowing up newbs fun? It looks really boring to me.
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In short? YES!! To me, my fun is more important than yours. I don't play any game for someone else's fun. This is human nature. People play games because it gratifies them! Whether it's the reputation, score, kill count, high bounty, helping a newbie (see first one), or what not, people play games because it is fun *TO THEM.* That is the goal of a computer game, or any entertainment, really: To have fun. The difficulty lies in creating a game diverse enough so that people can have fun in different ways, or have enough options so that the vast majority of people can have fun at the same time. For instance, a botter and trader can have fun at the same time, because their objects of entertainment do not overlap. However, if a PKer and botter are found in the same sector, someone is going to have fun (the PKer) and someone isn't (the botter). To satisfy PKers, there can be tons of options.... Assuming that there are going to be hundreds of sectors, there will be "core" homeworld sectors, and then frontiers and boundaries. Along these borders war will rage. The PKers will be attracted to being in the Serco or Itani navies and completing quests along those lines. The nation's navy gives you your ship, so you don't lose a lot for dying. Then it sends you on missions: "Kill this Serco VIP atlas four sectors away, he'll be there in 5 minutes," or, "Intel tells us there's going to be the serco ambush of an Itani VIP, lead a wing of four Valkyries to protect him." There will be a legitimate place in Vendetta for massive PKing. The "shoot first ask questions later" mentality will and should still exist in some places, such as borders.

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Besides if everybody in this game is going to get used to random killing being acceptable, like it is now, then once the game goes public as a final product, all these oldtimers will complain over and over again. And in the end the devs will have to go into some of these wishes, since the customer is king.
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Read above explanation.

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But rocket ramming IS the weapon of the Noob, since it makes you score easy kills by damaging yourselve, compare it with the suicidebombers with as major difference that in here the suicider doesnt die. I cant imagine anybody to hurt himself just to be able to get a hit on anybody else. If you will hurt yourselve, then due to self conservation, you will withhold from shooting/taking action. But in here hurting yourselve during an attack is encouraged since it is the fastest and most efficient way to kill.
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What is a n00b weapon? What means someone a n00b? Aren't you being unfair to newbies by lumping them in the same class as Icarus and AKA? I think what you mean to say is "ROCKET-RAMMING SUCKS!!" And, frankly, it does, if you cannot dodge. However, there are more than enough ways to counter someone intent on ramming you (dual tach/flare, rails, gauss, counter-ram) that ramming is not the surest way of getting kills. The fastest and most efficient way to get a kill is a quad-tachyon hornet. Barring that, it's a double-tach/gauss + flare Valk.

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Something you all seem to miss in all your pontificating. World War II analogies do not apply here. In a war, war itself is the justification for things like ganging up. You're fighting for something greater than petty pride. When a pirate picks on and kills a n00b, he isn't fighting for any cause. He's doing it for pride and pride alone. There is, however, no reason to be prideful in killing a n00b. Nor is there reason to be prideful by resorting to cheap tactics, nor is there cause for pride in outnumbering. You won, but so what, you haven't proved anything. And since you are not at war, you are not furthering any agenda.
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Well, the three "teams" in this game are at war. I think you miss the point, though, Magus. I never claimed that anyone takes pride in the ability to kill a newbie, except other newbies. I'd like to draw attention to your statement "You won... but you haven't proved anything. And since you are not at war, you are not furthering any agenda." You assume that one must be at war to provide a legitimate reason to kill someone. This is a space combat sim!!! You don't need a reason to kill someone. Maybe they looked at you funny! You talk of "resorting to cheap tactics" and "ganging up," to which I point you to two already mentioned quotes: the Jack Sparrow one ("Well that was incentive to fight fair!") and the gunbattle one ("there are no rules in a shoot-out"). If you desire an honorable fight, duel someone. Otherwise, please don't whine when someone "rams" you, chatfrags you, cuts and runs to the station, or rail-guns you as you run.
Feb 19, 2004 toshiro link
why are people allowed to kill others for no reason at all except their own fun, whilst the people who were killed have no right to complain?
sure, they could yell at the monitor. but that is somewhat unsatisfactory. also, the "whining" has the purpose of a early warning system, if you will, since fellow players who could be threatened by killers may know in advance to watch their backs more.
if you don't want to hear them, ignore them. as long as they don't insult you, you have no right to wish for them to be silent.
Feb 19, 2004 Magus link
Camps, if you reserve the rights of greifers to brag about their PK count if it's the result of chatfragging, ramming, or any other "cheap tactic," then you have no right to complain when the victims make a point of complaining about it.

The fact is, most PKers kill to stroke their own egoes. (I have 1000 PK's, look how cool I am. p433r mah insecuritay!) If they have to resort to cheapness to inflate that ego, then they really don't have a right to be egotistical, do they?
Feb 19, 2004 roguelazer link
>>> This is a space combat sim

No, this is a game slowly evolving into a complex MMORPG. If it was SpaceQuake, your arguements would be valid. It isn't.
Feb 19, 2004 SirCamps link
And you guys totally ignored my points about PKing having a place.

You also ignored my (still valid) argument of battles: There are no rules, just winners and losers.

Also, you say my arguments are not valid, but do not demonstrate how they are not so. I would appreciate it if you guys would post reasons, not just "well this ain't valid." Show how.

Magus, you are hypothesizing. I PK, and it's not to stroke an ego. It's fun. And differentiate between a discussion and complaining: "you have no right to complain..." C'mon guys, we're better than this.

I agree with Roguelazer, this is a game slowly evolving into a complex MMORPG. PKing will have a place. Allow me to repost:

To satisfy PKers, there can be tons of options.... Assuming that there are going to be hundreds of sectors, there will be "core" homeworld sectors, and then frontiers and boundaries. Along these borders war will rage. The PKers will be attracted to being in the Serco or Itani navies and completing quests along those lines. The nation's navy gives you your ship, so you don't lose a lot for dying. Then it sends you on missions: "Kill this Serco VIP atlas four sectors away, he'll be there in 5 minutes," or, "Intel tells us there's going to be the serco ambush of an Itani VIP, lead a wing of four Valkyries to protect him." There will be a legitimate place in Vendetta for massive PKing. The "shoot first ask questions later" mentality will and should still exist in some places, such as borders.
Feb 19, 2004 roguelazer link
The thing is, what we have now is the core worlds. Not the border worlds. If you wanna to pk in 18, go ahead. 17 even. But somewhere like 9?
Feb 19, 2004 Celkan link
Yet it shouldn't in these times, as people have said time and time again. All it has done NOW is ruin the game for new players. What do you think someone who buys a few month's worth of the game in its final version is gonna think if he or she gets their ass griefed off as soon as they log in for the first time. I could SAFELY bet you a reasonably large lump of cash that the first throught going through their minds is "Now gee, why the F*CK did I pay X dollars for this? It isn't even worth 3 cents; people aren't even letting me learn how to play!"

This is the current situation. Players actively PICK on new players and grief them till the log off, never to play again. People wonder why they never see me outside the station anymore... it's because there's always at least 2 or three pirates/greifers on, and I don't fly in neutral sectors with pirates/greifers flying around. People are assholes nowadays... now i'm not pointing fingers, but I think a lot of you know what i'm talking about. Especially you, Camps, you being a pirate.

EDIT: w00t! palindromic post number! 16861!
Feb 19, 2004 Spellcast link
The current situation with new players is an easy one to solve, and can be done without even altering the planned development of the code.

Easy solution: Create a mission (or series of missions) that MUST be completed in order for a new character to be able to leave the starting sector. The missions cover the basics of flight control, targeting and firing on an enemy (an inveunerable drone, hit me 3 times in order to move on to the next checkpoint), buying and selling, etc.

the last mission (or the last checkpoint in the training mission) gives you a password that you use on a warp to enter the main galaxy. once you warp out, you can NOT return to the noobie sector. Once you have completed the training missions as one character on your account, you can choose to start in the main galaxy instead of the training area.
Feb 19, 2004 SirCamps link
I like your idea Spellcast. Definitely something to come later on down the road.

Also, Verd, realize that we all learned the game on our own at some point. I re-learned it with Furball intent on griefing me. Did I delete the game in frustration? No. I have also yet to see someone grief a new guy off the game, too.

Those who assume that the final game will be like the tech demo have failed to read Guild's own words: "The TEST is not at all representative of the goals or design concepts intended for the final game. It is not a "Beta" or even an "Alpha". Again, it is best to consider it a separate project."

Rogue, right now can't be compared with what will be. We have way too few sectors to have different regions.
Feb 19, 2004 Magus link
"I re-learned it with Furball intent on griefing me. Did I delete the game in frustration? No. I have also yet to see someone grief a new guy off the game, too."
-Note the use of the prefix. You learned because you already had some basic knowledge. When I started out, I played really late at night and not many pirates were around. Fortunately, my trade-routes were always lonely and never had any pirates around. I was pirated a grand total of three times as a n00b. Once by Phoenix when Arolte first showed me S18, and the other two by UncleDave in 14. When I played, piracy was rare, I had more to fear from bots than people. Now, pirates are everywhere, even late at night. I pity the people that start out today.
Feb 19, 2004 SirCamps link
as FM said.... those who played in 3.2 wishes for 3.1, and those who played in 3.1 wished for 3.0.

What is your point, Magus, that piracy was nonexistent?

Let me phrase my question a different way: Given the nature of human nature, can the devs safely rely on everyone's "good will" to abide by internal regulations in the computer, or should the devs implement more external regulations?
Feb 19, 2004 roguelazer link
No, actually. I don't wish for any old version. I don't think that a version change would fix anything. The problem is with the fact that people have lost their desire to play nicely.
Feb 19, 2004 Durgia link
Spellcast that is a very good idea. Most noobs don't even read the manual when they start out. A forced training would be good.
Feb 19, 2004 Magus link
"What is your point, Magus, that piracy was nonexistent?"
-Did I say that? I said I learned the game and didn't get frustrated with it because I didn't have to deal with pirates. Believe it or not, if you aren't used to it, this game can be extremely frustrating to learn. It's only exacerbated by people PKing you every time you leave your home sector nowadays. And the pirates only convince other people to turn to piracy and it only grows until we have a community full of egoists who run around yelling "OMGROFL I SUNFLAREZORED J00!!! STFU I'M A PIRATE!!!!1!11!1one11!1"

"Given the nature of human nature, can the devs safely rely on everyone's "good will" to abide by internal regulations in the computer, or should the devs implement more external regulations?"
-Which is why they ought to put things in place to counteract that. But until they do, people have no reason to go around justifying their wrong actions by saying: "I learned how to play, you can too." If what you're doing is wrong, you can at least acknowledge it. And having "fun" at the expense of the game's future is wrong. If you think human nature is naturally bad, then why are you actively working to keep dragging it down instead of trying to improve on it?
Feb 19, 2004 SirCamps link
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-Which is why they ought to put things in place to counteract that. But until they do, people have no reason to go around justifying their wrong actions by saying: "I learned how to play, you can too." If what you're doing is wrong, you can at least acknowledge it. And having "fun" at the expense of the game's future is wrong. If you think human nature is naturally bad, then why are you actively working to keep dragging it down instead of trying to improve on it?
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Sooo what you're asking is for people to actively not exploit a perceived flaw (to you) in gameplay. You admit that human nature is corrupt/[insertyourfavoritewordhere] yet you ask people not to act that way. Isn't that a bit unrealistic? This is not to say that I personally will go around blowing the hell out of every bus that crosses my path. I'm not that type of person. However, I would like to see the community lose a lot of its animosity it currently has to those who kill other people. It seems to be that the only thing you can legitimately kill without people getting mad over in this game is a bot.
Feb 19, 2004 roguelazer link
I admit that human nature is corrupt. However, there is an element of human nature called "self-control". It's the reason you don't see 40 year old men going into hospitals and killing newborns, and saying "I managed to grow up, it's their own fault if they don't". It's the reason you don't see F15 fighter pilots strafing civilians "just because they can". And it's something you're showing very little of.
Feb 19, 2004 SirCamps link
Can everyone be depended upon to exhibit self-control in a game? Why do we have laws if we can depend on self-control? Why do we have government? Why is there even a game about combat if we are all such angels?

To answer your question, I doubt what restrains the sickos in our society from going on a rampage is their immense self-control; rather, it is the sure retaliation of the law. It is simple... if you go strafing citizens or killing kids, you're going to end up in the chair or behind bars. Murderers exhibit that self-control out of fear of consequences, not any love toward their fellow man. Sherpa works on the same premise. When he is on, people behave, not out of love toward the other players, but because they don't want to be muted or banned. This is how much of society operates. You don't skip classes, because you'll get bad grades. You don't go on a rampage because it will ruin your life.

In an environment such as an online game, it is unrealistic and naïve to depend on the "self control" of other gamers. Griefing won't stop because everyone all of a sudden everyone is infected with philephobia. It will stop because there will be penalties and consequences for certain behavior.

Sherpa-speak:

* There is much talk of "exploiting". This is actually a term used mostly in internet security to describe gaining access through un-secure software, but in Vendetta players are using it to describe the practices of rocket-ramming, stationing, station mining, jumping, and so forth. While many would describe these practices as "cheap", they are NOT against the rules. There is no official punishment for these practices because they take advantage of aspects of the game that are working as they were expected to. The developers have told me, essentially, that the game issues that result are the fault of the developers and are not to be policed by the guides. The developers are well aware of the impact of these practices, and fixes are in the works.
Feb 19, 2004 SirCamps link
Note: As evidenced by tonight, there are players who refuse to let off on some people. I was hanging in 9 with Incarnate and a1k0n, as were many other people, and two blue pilots with a grudge against me attacked me, and with the help of another a couple others, killed me. I returned, saying I was not hostile but was wanting to see the devs, but no, it fell on deaf ears. I eventually killed one of them and made the other dock several times, but my point is this: Don't think that I am not annoyed by these PKers, too. I experienced first-hand, tonight, the frustration of trying to hang out with some people, only to be ganged-up on people who refuse to role-play and observe common rules of decency.